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25 by Tom
Actually Tom, by the way, Sun is not so weak in the natal too. Sun is in the mutual reception with Moon (by exaltation).
The problem I have with this is that both the Sun and Moon are peregrine (have no essential dignity). They don't have much to share with each other since they are both essentially weak. THe Sun in Taurus is not very solar and the Moon in Aries is not very lunar.
Moon in 7th house, which transfers to Sun some angularity.
Interesting idea, but if the Sun is in the 8th that would also transfer to the Moon the accidental debility of being in the 8th house. The Moon is angular and as such gives all she has to give, but she doesn't have very much to give. I think if the Sun is in 8, that the mutual reception does help the Sun "get out." The idea is that planets in the 8th have a difficult time finding expression but aspects to their their dispositors and especially mutual reception help overcome this.

Tom

26 by Yuriy
Well, I didn?t mean that such reception has much to share but , by J. Frawley?s book, it adds 4 points to the each planet dignities(reception by exaltation). Anyways, thank you for ?letting my Sun out?:)
At some russian astroforum the Claudia Shiffer?s chart was discussed. She has a really powerful mutual reception of Venus-Saturn, and it gives angularity to Venus(in 12th) and ?joy? to Saturn(in 7th). Beside of that both planets get much essential dignity.
http://www.adze.com/Celebrities/ClaudiaSchiffer.htm
The discussion also was about her appearance. And how that almuten of ASC , which is obviously Mars, explains that. We couldn?t find of how Venus effects her ASC by any means.

27 by Tom
Fortunately for me, Solar Fire has Claudia Schiffer's chart. The chart you linked to is very difficult to read. I'm not certain but I think you're referring to the concept that planets in mutual reception somehow "swap places." If memory serves this is an invention of Barbara Watters, a 20th century astrologer. There is no mention of it in the tradiional texts.

I don't know very much about Claudia Schiffer, in fact, I recognize her name as a celebrity, but I'll be damned if I can recall what it is she is famous for. I don't know what she looks like either. Her Venus is in a wide sextile to the ASC ruler, Mars, who is angular and powerful poised at the top of the chart on the MC. Venus would be considered in the 12th house using Placidus cusps and the 5 degree rule, but as she is in rulership she is powerful and independent, and Saturn helps her "get out."

Whenever I see Saturn in Taurus I think of the words Lilly used to describe that placement: "severe" "sullen" and "strict." I wonder if that fits her in any way.

Regarding the point system mentioned in Frawley's and other work. These are guidelines. You will never see, in a traditional text things like: "Well Saturn gets 4 points and Mars gets only 3 so Saturn will always prevail over Mars in this chart." The table you refer to is also found in Christian Astrology and other traditional texts. It is useful, but it is not to be used rigidly.

Tom

28 by Yuriy
Claudia Schiffer is German supermodel and actress.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000629/
That?s why it?s a little bit strange to see Mars in her 10th and as ASC almuten. Where is her Venus?!!
Beside of that the reception of Saturn-Venus may be explains her privete life, relationship with ?magician? David Copperfield.
http://shop.vegas.com/shows/showtimes2. ... 86&lang=en
I mean that their relationship was denounced I media like some ?business agreement? to promote themselves but not a true romantic one. That?s probably explains Saturn-Venus in her chart.

29 by Tom
Beside of that the reception of Saturn-Venus may be explains her privete life, relationship with ?magician? David Copperfield.
Of course, that's where I remembered her name. David Copperfield was raised in Metuchen, New Jersey, and that is the town next to where I currently live.
That?s why it?s a little bit strange to see Mars in her 10th and as ASC almuten.
You may be a bit harsh on Mars. He is in rulership after all.
I mean that their relationship was denounced I media like some ?business agreement? to promote themselves but not a true romantic one. That?s probably explains Saturn-Venus in her chart.
Let's look at this using Morinus ideas. Saturn is in her 7th and therefore is descriptive of her partner(s). Venus rules the 7th and also plays a role, but Morinus tells us that a planet in the house is more influential than the ruler of the house even if the ruler is in domicile. Therefore, the words, severe, sullen and strict that I mentioned above would apply to her partner. That her ASC ruler is in aspect to Saturn indicates that she will have a partner, but the square indicates difficulties with the relationship. Now every relationship has difficulties, but these would be more pronounced. Having the malefics in aspect is no picnic particularly when neither has much essential dignity.

I don't know anything about the personality of David Copperfield and whether or not he is severe sullen or strict. His chart,interestingly, has the ruler of his 7th (Jupiter) in detriment in the 12th house opposed to a retrograde Mars in Pisces.

Given this I wonder if perhaps the relaionship was not so much one of convenience as one that was just difficult for both of them. I just noticed that his Venus is conjunct her Saturn by antiscion. Lots of Mars-Venus-Saturn going on here.

Tom

30 by Yuriy
Yeah, probably because of that link to Claudia Schiffer?s chart(which makes chart image very hard to read) I?ve overlooked Mars-Saturn square. I?ve Mars-Saturn opposition and, from my point of view, even very successful people with this combination might have problems with taking things easy and ?being happy? in generally. Especially with Claudia?s Moon in 8th house.
By the way, Tom, question about your early post
Tom wrote:For the 10th house, I like Morinus' "definition:" honors. In 2006 we look at the 10th as career and that is understandable, but I've been thinking and I wonder if the 10th doesn't describe the relative amount of success within the career. We would also have to include the ASC and its ruler for this prediction.


How do you relate ASC ruler or it?s almuten dignities to the professional success and recognition? As in my sample, if MSC almuten is quite weak, does ?strong? ASC compensates it to some extent? The ASC in Libra and Saturn is angular in Aquarius, and Venus angular in Taurus. Saturn is in trine to ASC.

31 by Tom
Hi Yuriy,

I?ve been spending some time with Jean Baptiste Morin deVillefranche and I?m going to try to answer your question regarding success using his techniques or at least as I?m going to try to answer with my understanding of his techniques. In the Announcement I said we shouldn?t be afraid to make mistakes, so I guess I should be the first to take a bit of a chance here.

However, Morin?s techniques require a bit of background, as they aren?t necessarily the same as everyone else?s. I?m going to give the ones that pertain to these questions without quotes, as this will probably be long enough without adding footnotes.

Triplicities:

Morin developed his own set of triplicities based on the major dignities as opposed to sect. The logic runs this way: The day ruler is the planet that has two major dignities in a set of elements. The night ruler is the planet that rules the cardinal sign in that set of elements. The participating ruler is the domicile ruler of the remaining sign.

Fire Triplicity: The Sun is the day ruler as he rules two signs, Leo by domicile and Aries by exaltation. Mars is the night ruler as he rules the cardinal fire sign Aries. Jupiter is the participating ruler as he rules the remaining fire sign, Sagittarius.

Earth Triplicity: Mercury is the domicile and exaltation ruler of Virgo, so he is the day ruler. Saturn rules cardinal earth sign Capricorn, so he is the night ruler. Venus rules Taurus the remaining sign, and therefore is the participating ruler.

Air Triplicity: Saturn is the day ruler as he rules Aquarius by domicile and Libra by exaltation. Venus is the night ruler as she rules cardinal air sign Libra. Mercury is the ruler of Gemini and is the participating ruler

Water Triplicity: Jupiter is the day ruler as he rules Pisces by domicile and Cancer by exaltation. The Moon is the night ruler as she rules the cardinal sign Cancer. Mars is the participating ruler as he rules Scorpio, the remaining sign.

A couple of Morin?s ?aphorisms:

A planet posited in a house has more influence over the affairs of that house than the ruler does if the ruler is placed in another house.

The influence of the planet is due to its nature and it s celestial state (i.e. how strong it is), and whether or not the planet has an analogy to the house in which it is posited. Jupiter for example is associated with wealth and therefore has an analogy with the second house. Saturn is associated with enemies and therefore has an analogy with the 7th house etc.

The dispositors of a planet along with the aspects tell us the effects of the planet on a house for good or ill.

A planet posited in a house also influences the opposite house. This is not true of the ruler of a house posited in a different house than the one he rules.

Claudia Schiffer
Aug 25, 1970
12:10 pm CET ?1hr
Rheinberg, Germany
51 N 33 006 E 35
Placudus cusps

Ruler of the first, Mars posited on the MC. A strong indication of public honor, but we must look deeper. How great will those honors be? That depends on the condition of Mars and anything posited in the 10th house. The Sun is associated with honors and he, too is posited in the 10th house as is the part of fortune, and the south node. Morin didn?t use the terms and faces (he called them ?Arab fantasies?), so in his view the Sun is peregrine, however the Sun is in a tight sextile to Jupiter, the greater benefic, so that helps even if Jupiter is in 12. Jupiter is also disposited by Mars, Lord ASC, and Jupiter is also the participating triplicity ruler of fire and Leo is on the MC.

Mars is the night ruler of fire in this scheme, and I?ve never been persuaded that there is an on/off switch with the triplicity rulers that changes position when the Sun goes down (or comes up), so Mars has some dignity here, too, but not classically so (although I understand Bonatti might agree with me). The Sun (honors) also disposits Mars (Lord ASC). I think it is fair to say we have some decent testimony for fame or public honors in this chart, although the fame is international, it is not the kind that will be long lasting as say, Churchill?s lasting influence.

Looking at her 7th house we see Saturn in Taurus in the 7th. Saturn is strong here as Saturn has an analogy with some of the meanings of the 7th, in this case, enemies. Saturn also can deny marriage unless he is in great dignity. So who are her enemies? Well, Saturn rules the 3rd house of communication and the Moon, exaltation ruler of Saturn and the 7th rules the 9th. Gossip and journalists are her enemies. This played out in the criticism that she and David Copperfield were together to enhance her or his career(s).

As noted above, Morin says that since Saturn is posited in 7 he also has influence over the first house. I can?t picture what Ms Schiffler looks like, but I do note that Saturn is in a Venus sign and Venus is highly dignified in her domicile, Libra, and of course she is in the mixed mutual reception with Saturn, hence her good looks.

Saturn is also descriptive of her partner, David Copperfield. Now Copperfield, on stage has that dark beady-eyed appearance cultivated for the performance. A co-worker of mine went to high school with him and he showed me a yearbook photo many years ago. He was, dark haired at age 18, but those eyes are at least partly accounted for by make up and learned countenance. He is a bit Saturnine in appearance though, and I?m not sure, but I don?t think they ever married.

What this tells us is that there are no hard and fast rules regarding fame or success, but rather we have to look at the relevant planets, their dispositors, aspects, and placements to get us on the right track. Although I didn?t mention them the fixed stars play a role in this as well and so do directions, progressions, solar returns, etc. In short, it takes a lot of work to make these determinations and we can?t do it with formulas or base it on planetary strength alone.

All comments on this are welcome and in fact encouraged even if it is to tell me I?m full of donkey dust.

Tom

32 by AaronC
Tom,

Thanks for that great discussion of the almuten. I'm curious, what method do you use to detrmine the almuten in case of a tie? Is it true that there for any degree there can only be a single almuten?

33 by zuli
I found these unconditional almutens:
1. In the term of Jupiter in Cancer Jupiter is the almuten.
2. In the term of Saturn in Libra - Saturn.
3. In the term of Mars in Capricorn - Mars.
4. In the term of Venus in Pisces - Venus.
5. In the term of Mars in Pisces - Mars!

...and these conditional or dependent on by day or by night:
6. Sun is the almuten of Aries by day.
7. Jupiter is the almuten of 20? Leo by night.
8. Saturn is the almuten of Libra by day.
9. Mercury the almuten of 11-12? Aquarius by night.


I find it very strangely 5 (the term of Mars in Pisces), as I wrote above.
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