Did you know that, contrary to her moniker as the planet of love and beauty, Venus is actually poisonous and hellish?

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Good evening, everyone. This forum is created for the sake of morbid curiosity. After all, there is no “funeral” without “fun”.

Show me examples where benefic planets are afflicted in any and all charts.

Show me examples of unfortunate or malevolent people - or tragedies - despite (or due to?) the prominence or dignity of benefics in their charts.

Is too much of a good thing bad?

Below is a natal chart that you are free to analyse and a small biography of the person with said chart.

Granted, the person below is an extreme example. I doubt most people today with afflicted benefics are as twisted as him.

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François Bertrand was born on 29th October 1823 in Voise, France at 9 am.

French army officer and necrophiliac, arrested in 1849 for two years of grave robbing involving freshly buried corpses of young girls looted from local cemeteries. He began to dream of women from the time he was eight-nine years old with onanism from the age of eight. By the ages of 13-14, he masturbated as much as eight times a day. He always loved to destroy; he did not play with toys, but with animals, attaining sexual thrills through cruelty. He mutilated animals, tearing out their entrails as he masturbated. His onanism fantasy came to involve the exercise of power over women, torture and desecration.

In spite of severe fits of depression and guilt, the impulse became overwhelming. Severe headaches would lead to such an urge to for sexual destruction that he would go to any lengths to find a body, swimming icy streams and digging in the earth until his fingers bled. In his passionate frenzy, his obsession with mutilation was total. He cut, hacked, stabbed and tore at body parts until no part of the corpse was left untouched, and then again performed onanism.

- Astrodienst

Although the medical community could not agree on a diagnosis, they did agree when it came to Bertrand’s culpability. Doctors stated, “although perfectly sane, Bertrand is not responsible for these acts.” Despite doctors findings, the justice system levied a punishment, so that in the end, Bertrand received a year’s imprisonment, during which time doctors attempted to cure him.

In 1856, Bertrand moved to Le Havre. There he held a variety of positions — clerk, lighthouse keeper and mailman. As no reports on grave desecration were linked to Bertrand, xxx stated, “he is now perfectly cured of his hideous disease, and is cited as model of gentleness, propriety, and good behavior.”

François Bertrand died on 25 February 1878. However, Bertrand’s “peculiarity” for the dead continued to be of interest to the medical community. It also resulted in Dr. Joseph Guislain, a Belgian physician and a pioneer in psychiatry, coining the term “necrophilia” in 1850.

- Geri Walton

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Discrepancy: Astrodienst and Astroseek use Voise as Bertrand’s birthplace, placing his ASC at 29° Scorpio. However, Wikipedia and Astrotheme say Voisey, placing Bertrand’s ASC at 0° Sagittarius. This tiny difference changes the whole sign houses and the ASC ruler. Astrodienst’s source is a “B.C. in hand from G.S. MacEwan.”

Regardless, my Notes are the same:

1. Venus in Libra is the final dispositor of all classical planets and angles.
2. Mercury was stationing direct.
3. Jupiter stationed retrograde over 13 and a half hours after Bertrand’s birth.
4. Two days after his birth, Venus stationed direct.

In Uranian astrology, the MC is the personnality of the native, the ego.

In his chart, the MC 21 Vir 10 is semi-square Sun (body) 5 Sco 09
square Hades 19 Sag 05
sesqui-quadrate Admetos 6 Aqu 06
And in the midpoint
VE/MA 20 Vir 30
MA/UR 5 Sco 10
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At the Aries Point
Pluto, Apollon, Cupido, Zeus, Fortuna
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In astrology, the connection
between Hades (deep transformation, darkness, and underworld themes, similar to Pluto) and Admetos (personal transformation, endurance, death and standstill) can suggest intense and powerful energies in an individual’s life. Both planets represent the more hidden, shadowed, or subconscious aspects of life.

Both the Sun and the MC are connecting to Hades and Admetos, associated with psychological exploration, profound and intense inner world. There could also be a subconscious connection to power, control, and even a sense of being misunderstood or dealing with taboos, and matters of life and death.
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Add in the picture the midpoints VE/MA of sexual activity and MA/UR of impulsive and exciting action and he got known as the Vampire of Montparnasse arrested for necrophilia Necrophilia is a term derived from the Greek words philios (attraction to/love) and nekros (dead body) and involves the sexual attraction to a dead body.

This can be read as the individual (MC), in his body (Sun) is sexually (VE/MA) stimulated (MA/UR) by dead (Hades) or standstill (Admetos) bodies.
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At the Vernal Point, he has Pluto, Apollon, Cupido, Zeus, Fortuna.
I am not declining in details all the planets here but of Pluto/Apollon = Aries Point, the Rulebook says "to set a precedent, test case"... of necrophilia

Best to you
Ouranos

Could it be because the afflicted Venus disposits all the classical planets that the subject was so aberrated? Venus is in square with Neptune and Uranus. Ebertin says in COSI that Venus/Neptune and Venus/Uranus indicate sexual peculiarities, which certainly applies in M. Bertrand's case. And Uranus/Neptune supposedly indicates "the elimination of the human consciousness." I'd want to see other cases where a sole dispositor is heavily afflicted to see how that hypothesis stands up.

Venus is in the 12th house too, one of the most unfavorable houses. Though if you switch house systems to say, Placidus, you lose that: Venus ends up being in the 10th then.

--stargeezer

Ouranos wrote: In Uranian astrology, the MC is the personnality of the native, the ego.

I use the ASC as representing the personality of the native. I am curious why Uranian astrology chooses the MC as representing the native’s ego instead of the Sun or ASC.

Ouranos wrote: And in the midpoint
VE/MA 20 Vir 30
MA/UR 5 Sco 10

Ouranos wrote: Add in the picture the midpoints VE/MA of sexual activity and MA/UR of impulsive and exciting action and he got known as the Vampire of Montparnasse arrested for necrophilia Necrophilia is a term derived from the Greek words philios (attraction to/love) and nekros (dead body) and involves the sexual attraction to a dead body.

This can be read as the individual (MC), in his body (Sun) is sexually (VE/MA) stimulated (MA/UR) by dead (Hades) or standstill (Admetos) bodies.

Now that’s a fantastic observation. The Venus/Mars midpoint is conjunct the MC, and the Mars/Uranus midpoint is conjunct the Sun. Dang. What other midpoints could better describe a sexually destructive grave robber who loved mutilating dead girls?

However, as I don’t practise Uranian astrology, I am confused by your use of asteroids such as Hades and Admetos and aspects like semi-square or sesqui-quadrate.

Regarding corpses, I would instead focus on Saturn in Taurus in the whole sign 7th house. Saturn is itself a macabre planet, and in this natal chart, it is ruled by Venus in Libra.

(And Saturn’s exalted in Libra as well… So, mutual reception?)

Saturn-Venus; Necro-Philia. Quite on the nose, isn’t it?

Additionally, Jupiter in Cancer is the ruler of the 5th house and IC in Pisces, and squares Venus in Libra. With two dignified benefics (which station after Bertrand’s birth), I think that indicates excessive, uncontrollable lust.

Let me know what you think, Ouranos.

Stargeezer,

I recall your post being longer than it is now. Did you delete a section of your post? If so, what was it, and why did you remove it?

Psst… If any of you want to post a different birth chart with prominent, afflicted benefics, that would be fine.

indian astrology has a more elaborate definition of malefics and benefics which lend to the idea that benefics can operate as malefics and vice versa... it is complicated and i don't profess to know the details with great understanding, but that is the gist of it... 12th house ruler is generally considered a malefic, even if it is a benefic and etc. etc..

I use the ASC as representing the personality of the native. I am curious why Uranian astrology chooses the MC as representing the native’s ego instead of the Sun or ASC.

In Uranian astrology, the MC is often described as representing the ego and the self because it embodies an individual's public identity, social role, and how they are seen by the world. While the Ascendant is associated with the personal demeanor and how one presents themselves in their day-to-day life, the MC is more connected to one's outward ambitions, career, and life goals, which can be seen as a reflection of the ego in terms of public persona and achievements.

Uranian astrology places a strong emphasis on the collective and social aspects of the individual, and the MC, located at the highest point in the chart, symbolizes where an individual strives to make their mark in the world. It’s viewed as a point of potential visibility and self-expression that is tied to how the person wants to project their identity and fulfill their personal aspirations in the public sphere.

In contrast, the Sun represents the core essence of one's being, whereas the Ascendant is linked to the first impressions and it is always altered when you interact with the world. The MC, therefore, stands apart as it governs the more outward-facing aspect of the self, aligning with the broader idea of ego in a societal context. This is why Uranian astrology places special emphasis on the MC in relation to the ego and self-expression.

Each sign has a first approach interacting with the world. For a Virgo, how can I help you? For a Taurus, every first interaction becomes something or someone that belongs to my world. My lawyer, my teacher, my hairdresser. But it is being 'altered' depending on the response. The ASC is multiple. You hear that in the news every day to describe a murderer, someone will say "He was nice with me" while someone else will say "He threatened me once". Are we talking about the same person?

However, as I don’t practise Uranian astrology, I am confused by your use of asteroids such as Hades and Admetos and aspects like semi-square or sesqui-quadrate.

Hades and Admetos are Trans-neptunian 'planets' or 'fields of energy' or 'influences' in the sky.
Hard aspects like the semi-square or sesqui-quadrate are aspects of 'manifestation' in the matter. They make things happen as opposed to soft aspects which are 'states of being'.

Regarding corpses, I would instead focus on Saturn in Taurus in the whole sign 7th house. Saturn is itself a macabre planet, and in this natal chart, it is ruled by Venus in Libra.
(And Saturn’s exalted in Libra as well… So, mutual reception?)

That is interesting!
I would tend to believe that with SA in Tau in 7th that there is some kind of retribution expected in his relationships and that it is interchangeable (MR), like whoever is available (12th House VE).

In fact, Saturn and Admetos share a similar kind of energy.

Saturn is a well-known planet in traditional astrology and represents structure, responsibility, limitation, discipline, and authority. In Uranian astrology, Saturn retains these meanings but is often associated with long-term challenges, tests, and the mastery of material reality. Saturn emphasizes time, boundaries, and often requires effort and perseverance to achieve success.

Admetos represents themes of deep internal transformation, immobility, and a sense of being blocked or confined in some way. It often points to areas of life where a person may experience a lack of external movement or change, resulting in inner processes of transformation or growth. Admetos is sometimes seen as more inwardly focused, representing persistence through challenging or stagnant situations that eventually lead to profound personal transformation.

While Saturn deals with external structures, often associated with practical limitations or boundaries that must be respected or overcome, Admetos is more about internal, often hidden processes—stagnation or immobilization that leads to deep, inner transformation and eventual breakthroughs after a period of stillness or struggle.

Additionally, Jupiter in Cancer is the ruler of the 5th house and IC in Pisces, and squares Venus in Libra. With two dignified benefics (which station after Bertrand’s birth), I think that indicates excessive, uncontrollable lust.

Stations in astrology indicate a significant shift as they appear to come to a halt in the sky before changing direction (retrograde or direct). A station often intensifies the qualities of the planet involved, bringing attention to the areas of life they influence.

For Venus stations direct, the energy can shift to outward expression with a renewed sense of attraction. Decisions may now feel clearer or easier to make.
In 12th House matters, secretly, behind closed doors. See the chart of Landru for whom it was easy to meet strangers (12th House). I would guess so easy for Bertrand (Venus in rulership) that he always got the consent of his victims!

As for Jupiter stations retrograde, internal growth and expansion are amplified rather than outward success.
In 5th House matters. Infinite self-pleasure seeking.

In conclusion, midpoints will never fully describe a situation or a state. They come as keywords to help you find 'themes' in a person's life and only a thorough investigation of the whole chart will reveal the person. By combining it with traditional astrology, you can gain more insights.
In Bertrand's chart, the SU and MC in the midpoint MA/UR tells us that he is someone who likes to take risks.
In another chart, it could be a racecar driver, a rebellious person, an accident, a surgery or a sudden explosion.

Ouranos wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:06 pm In Uranian astrology, the MC is often described as representing the ego and the self because it embodies an individual's public identity, social role, and how they are seen by the world. While the Ascendant is associated with the personal demeanor and how one presents themselves in their day-to-day life, the MC is more connected to one's outward ambitions, career, and life goals, which can be seen as a reflection of the ego in terms of public persona and achievements.

That is interesting for me because it sounds like just another meaning of the terms ego and self but the intended meaning is the same probably.

james_m wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 4:56 pm indian astrology has a more elaborate definition of malefics and benefics which lend to the idea that benefics can operate as malefics and vice versa... it is complicated and i don't profess to know the details with great understanding, but that is the gist of it... 12th house ruler is generally considered a malefic, even if it is a benefic and etc. etc..

I know this from Traditional Western Astrology too…

same sources probably... modern traditional astrology, lol..

Mr Gallows wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 11:22 am Stargeezer,

I recall your post being longer than it is now. Did you delete a section of your post? If so, what was it, and why did you remove it?

I originally had a final paragraph where I questioned your statement that Venus also disposited the angles, because I don't think I've ever heard of angles having dispositors. Then as I thought about it I became less sure. It was late and I didn't feel like thinking about it any more, so I took it out.

(Edited to add, 02/15/2025): Now that I've had a little time to think about it and look around on the web, No, I don't think I've ever heard of angles having dispositors, only planets. Am I wrong in this impression? Do angles have dispositors, or is it only planets as I believed? Any enlightenment on this point appreciated.

My hypothesis, which I now think I may not have expressed that well in the original post, is that perhaps the sole dispositor "infects" the other planets in the chart with the ill effects of the Neptune and Uranus squares, which might be less without a sole dispositor.

--stargeezer

Above is the chart for Jimmy Saville no hour of birth is available I placed the Sun in the first house.Just to demonstrate the Sun & moon positions are close with François Bertrand.He had similar tendencies.I would suggest Pluto influences. Lots of Scorpio with Pluto on the north node can't cope with change, death gives a sense of control. Bertrand had Pluto on the Aries point & Sun in Scorpio.