i was interested in this from an astrological angle... what would define neutrality astrologically?? it seems to me it would imply a certain balanced position that was both receptive to opposing viewpoints and not willing to commit to either... maybe others have some ideas on this which it would be good to hear..

apparently switzerland has had to confront this very topic since the advent of it going along with the economic sanctions towards russia in light of the invasion of ukraine in feb 2022.. it might be more complicated then this, but i recommend a 20 minute interview which i watched yesterday that discusses this topic specifically.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWtY-ipLSAg Switzerland and Its Neutrality [Interview with Pascal Lottaz, 27FEB2025] - uploaded to youtube march 5th 2025 and in english.. the video was embedded inside of a substack channel i get articles from shown immediately below.
https://stefanjheeb.substack.com/p/swit ... ity-within

there are 2 charts for switzerland in nic campions book of world horoscopes... the first one is for 1291... the 2nd one is apparently used by astrologers in switzerland and is shown immediately below in tropical zodiac.. it is the switzerland constitution chart.. the data for this chart below is sept 12, 1848, 1119am LMT bern switz....
below are the tropical zodiac positions off this chart shown above..


again the idea of neutrality is found where in astrology?? is it an air sign attribute?? would saturn somehow embody the concept the best? or is venus to be used in some context?? in this chart mercury, mars and venus are in a close conjunction very close to the beginning of the sign libra... perhaps this speaks to this... but my own thinking, subjective as it might be is that the opposition of sun-saturn is more likely where this desire for objectivity and possibly neutrality is found... why do i say this?? i believe the opposition of sun and saturn, when found in birth charts creates a certain challenge to the individual in the relationship department where they are obliged to go the extra mile in consideration of others...

now, as it happens this chart for switzerland is coming up to another saturn return.. according to the video i have shared above, it sounds as though it is very likely their will be a referendum in switzerland late next year addressing this very issue of neutrality to the point they are in discussions at present to either change the constitution or address this topic in a more clear way inside of the constitution... i found it all interesting from an astrological and political angle...

Hi James, interesting topic. Given the 10th is a country's leaders and reputation, I'm inclined to think Virgo there with Mercury in Virgo (although in the 11th) would point to neutrality; Virgo likes to stay aloof and is eminently practical and with Gemini, also ruled by Mercury, on the 8th of banks ....their perceived 'neutrality' in financial matters is also emphasized.

Scorpio on the Asc with Mars in Libra in the 11th is also interesting; for much of their history, the Swiss were known for being mercenaries. According to Wiki, this changed with their 1848 Constitution, which "banned military alliances" unless they were required by treaty (Libra?). Lee Lehman makes the point that a planet in detriment tries harder; so here Mars (Swiss people) is trying hard to be peaceful (Libra). Mars at 0 Libra also points to this being a 'new' approach for them.

That Sun/Saturn opposition could well be them dealing with the the change in the direction of their leadership; maybe it's been more challenging than they thought it would be.

thanks jane!

i like lee lehmans idea of a planet in detriment working harder.. i have heard this discussed before in a fairly convincing manner..

i was thinking of how mercury is supposed to be 'detached' how it could play this role, but i think of mercury as so changeable and fickle too, so i was not thinking of it embracing neutrality so much as being swayed by the other influences in the chart... but maybe i am wrong on that and i am just reflecting my own chart and bias... it is considered one of the 'air' type planets, along with venus and saturn.... that is interesting the history on switzerland being known for mercenaries.. wouldn't this be true of many countries prior to 1848? at any rate - it's an interesting idea in relation to the mars in libra position...

i do find the close conjunction of these 3 planets - mercury, mars and venus so close to the fall equinox sign libra does again emphasize the air qualities i associate with having the ability to express greater neutrality... my impression is this neutrality is really being tested today across the planet... thanks for your commentary jane!

Hi james... I can see where you're coming from with Air being more of the mind and Libra looking for balance and so possibly more neutral but here Mercury is in Virgo, Earth, which is far more stable than Air and so prone to make Mercury more careful and discriminating in its choices and I think Saturn, opposed, might make him sober, shrewd and less likely to be swayed. I think a desire for business and social stability is important to them and at some point they decided neutrality was the most likely path to achieving that goal; at least, that's how I've always seen them, which is probably tainting my view of the chart.

There were other countries that had mercenaries but, from what I've read of them, the Swiss were the cream of the crop (until guns began to rule conflicts); it's probably why the Pope has been protected by a Swiss Guard since the 1500's.

It's been mentioned that there'll be a Saturn-return - actually in a few days. And at the same time Saturn conj.Sun.
Switzerland is close to a recession, it depends a lot on the EC - and the more it depends on that less neutrality will be the result.
When looking at the return chart: AC 29:52 degrees SAG , might also be first degree CAP. The Sun-SAT conj. is in house 2 (Placidus).

i don't know the history on mercenaries, so i will have to take your word on that... i do recall the gurkhas often working for the brits and they weren't switz!

regarding the focus on an element as opposed to a planet - it is interesting how these symbols cross over with one another... mercury is thought to be 'airy' but is said to do well in virgo which seems more associated with detail work.. venus on the other hand seems well suited to the air element, but also rules taurus which is very fertile earth goddess type imagery - lets hear it for gardening, lol... i planted some broad beans and arugula yesterday.. if i was thinking of astrological elements ( ed got me thinking of this with his temperament analysis) i think libra is a better symbol for 'neutrality'... is the sign libra the only sign with a non animal symbolizing it?? i seem to recall it is... the scales or balances where everything is weighed accordingly... actually i often find libras more of the perfectionists and detailed type analysts in the zodiac then virgos, but i go on my own subjectivity more then anything else.. i have a close friend with mercury in virgo on the ascendant.. he is also sun in virgo and moon in cancer - all tropical.. he is my first hand experience of mercury in virgo.. he has venus in libra too, but i think his mercury in virgo is much more obvious.. virgos are more conservative and maybe that is a type of 'neutrality' - conservatism... i don't know.. sorry for rambling.. rambling can be fun! thanks for your comments jane.. i was unaware of the pope and the swiss guard role.. you'd figure with god on his side he wouldn't need a guard, lol...

lunlumo

good to see you! yes - saturn return coming up soon.. i am unable to quickly generate a chart for the saturn return off morinus... if you could provide me with the details of the time, i could do it.. i see it is sometime next tuesday approx - march 11th... i would be curious to see it in sidereal zodiac which would be different.. thanks!

Hi James:
the SAT-return chart: March 12, 2:13 GMT, Berne - AC at 2.45 degrees CAP (not, as I wrote at 29 SAG -error)
Regards, LL

thanks lunlumo

i haven't worked with any return charts outside of sun and moon, but there is probably merit in a return chart for saturn.. i know from memory how difficult it used to be to arrive at the sun in aries ingress tropical in the past, and it has only been more recently that one can actually get this data fairly accurate.. i suspect getting a saturn 'return' is a bit ambiguous, but maybe i am wrong given computers capabilities.. lets say we could get this data quite accurate today.. what will it tell us?? it would have to relate to the role that saturn plays in the 1848 chart for switzerland and this would be determined by all the unique factors that go into this position.. they would include sign, house and rulership dynamics, and relationships with the other planets in the chart..

as it happens this one via the tropical chart has sun transit at 21 pisces in a conjunction with saturn at 22 - saturn effectively burned by the sun for this specific saturn return.. and both sun and saturn are in a fairly close opposition to natal sun at 19 virgo..

here is the chart for the saturn return based off the times i get off my solar fire program on my laptop.. they give 3 cap 47'15" as the ascendant.... an interesting observation in relation to the issue of finances, and more generally direction is suggested by the exact square of pluto on the 2nd house cusp at 3 aquarius square midheaven degree at 3 scorpio.. see the chart for this below.. maybe some other speculative conclusions can be made off this chart as well, or the one below it which is a biwheel with the 1848 natal chart on the inside and the saturn return for this tuesday on the outside..
for anyone interested i can also share the same data in the sidereal zodiac where a quite different picture is given..

Interesting observations, especially those concerning Pluto. House two, as we know, also stands for the state of social well-being.
I'm ot very familiar with current affairs in Switzerland. What I know: Economy used to be in better conditions, presently productivity is quite low. What keeps the economy going is private consumption, with quite a lot of people having a lot of money on their accounts. But that won't last long, probably. In addition there have bee serious problems with banks, namely Credit Suisse, whose reputation has been badly shaken.
The state and the forms - and the need of neutrality are being discussed again. On the one side: "We need closer connexions with the EC to keep our economy going." On the other side: "In a world on the brink to chaos, it's better to stand aloof."

thanks lunlumo

i don't really have a great insight into switzerland or most places in the world for that matter.. i appreciate that the financial dynamic on the world stage are very challenging... this would necessitate a conversation on the world financial system and how banks create money out of nothing in a manner which is expansionary, especially with regard to profiting off the interest made in creating this money - thru debt... so, we will see how it goes with switzerland here, and europe and the rest of the world for that matter.. i do wonder with the next big financial crisis is going to hit the skids where the little person is left carrying the bill for those who continue to profit from this inherently corrupt system of money as it is presently designed..

from 2022 on credit suisse -
https://www.reuters.com/business/financ ... 022-01-17/