J D Vance

Again there is very little to choose between the various methods. In fact Greenbaum's method produces exactly the same result as the one for Trump. As an aspiring politician, Vance's challenge, with proportionately less sanguine to temper his choler than Trump (using the reference method) is relatability. He is less moist than Trump. Vance has all the heat and more, but little wetness to temper this. Lehman's method gives him some phlegm (cold, wet), but coldness will probably not help his cause. In general modern western voters like their leaders served hot and wet!

Here is dictionary definition of relatability:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... latability

Greenbaum method:


Lehman method:


Reference method in Planetdance:

Peter Thiel (rectified time of birth)

Using this rectification, each method gives very similar results. Thiel is never going to be a politician that is relatable. All methods show reduction in sanguine and a marked rise in melancholy. Thiel, it seems, is more reserved and intellectual (cold and dry). Heat and dryness are the main components in his temperament balance. This is likely to make him quite abrasive and challenging but without being tempered by sufficient moist factors.

Greenbaum method:


Lehman method:


Reference method in Planetdance:

ed

i can't remember, but is the seasonal factor - being born in the spring) a part of the sanguine numbers for trump?

also, there are positive features of the choleric temperament and a person can't be all the negatives!

thanks for doing this.. i have only read the trump overview so far..

reading jd vance - more questions... the moon ruler is venus which is occidental sun.. is this the reason lehman gives the moon ruler in vance's chart the phlegmatic points?? it appears to..

Hi James - yes and yes.

Trump is born in the spring, the sanginue season. This is one of the reasons I am sceptical about Lehman's discarding of season and using the element of the position of the Sun. Not specifically because of Trump's chart, but, based on my wider experience, seasonality of the sun seems to be fundamental.

Yes - every temperament is a strength, but when a person is distempered (excessively one temperament or another, or totally lacking in one or more temperaments) the more extreme qualities might play out. This is especially true of the dry temperaments. Trump should be grateful that he has as much sanguine as he does. I think otherwise he would not have the popular appeal that he has with particular sections of society.

You can see where this might lead: the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions are now going to be spending 240 years in air signs. This is perhaps reflected in culture through social media, but also our preference for figures like Trump and Johnson in public life. In may ways it is not surprising that we have seen the rise of popularism against the background of the shift from earth to air. No-one likes seriousness and calm reflection now!

Politics is becoming a form of entertainment for some, an extension of reality TV and celebrity documentaries. All very airy. Trump and Musk are apparently going to visit Fort Knox to discover if there is any missing gold. That is straight out of the cable TV playbook. The seriousness of the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions in earth (melancholic, cold, dry) has been replaced by the airy need for relatability and fleeting connection. One has the feeling that it is becoming acceptable to say absolutely anything - true or not - as long as it is entertaining and diverting.

Ref Vance - indeed, both Greenbaum and Lehman give Venus occidental cold, moist qualities. I'm not entirely convinced myself. I was using Venus occidental as sanguine (as per the oriental Venus) but I'm experimenting at the moment in the light of their work.

thanks ed!

that is interesting consideration that you give to the jupiter-saturn conjunctions moving from earth to air.. that might have a lot of merit as an idea and one i hadn't thought of.. i am more cynical myself and feel the world is presently being challenged to find alternatives to the great obsession with technology we see everywhere ( an obsession or imbalance with air perhaps) .. there could be a back to nature movement that goes in the opposite direction.. this is pure speculation or fantasy on my part, but i can't discount this possibility either.. the greater the craziness, the more people look for alternatives, including unplugging and exploring other approaches to life..

from an elemental angle, thinking that these elements might have some basic connection to temperament analysis, i think there is room for all the elements and temperaments.. although choleric is keen to be first and getting a lot of attention, i think the other temperaments are necessary to balance it all out.. without them, we are too one dimensional!!

i find the temperament analysis interesting as it approaches the astrology from a different angle and one with a long history as i understand it.. it seems to be bordering on the modern type astrology which has focused on psychology, as opposed to predictive work associated with traditional astrology.. perhaps this is another conversation for another thread, but i do think the focus on psychology that various schools of astrology have taken up the past 50 years, might be coming out of this same interest in the concepts of temperament associated with an astrology from the past - call it traditional astrology, or whatever - it seems connected to me and not one to always want to divide...

Thanks for these reflections James - much appreciated as ever.

Ed

Here are the temperament graphs for Elon Musk:

Greenbaum method:


Lehman method:


Planetdance reference method:


Musk's temperament balance is markedly different to those of Trump, Vance and Thiel. In this company he does look like the odd one out. One explanation is that his birth time is not correct. Musk would have to born over an hour later to bring Leo to the ascendant. This would give him more choleric elements, and, in fact, if we pushed his birth time back to 08:40AM giving a few degrees of Leo rising, Greenbaum's method would make him highly choleric. Whatever the time of day he was born, his Moon would be in melancholic Virgo. I am not advocating any rectification of his birth time however, just making the observation to explore the impact of an altered birth time on his temperament balance.

Musk's chart, assuming the biography is correct which gives him a time of birth of 07:30AM, shows the fundamental limitation of Lehman's method in my view. Using her approach, eliminating the seasonal position of the Sun eliminates the choleric component in his temperament. Given what we know of Musk, it seems highly unlikely to me that he is choler-negative so to speak. An individual without any choleric influence may well lack the drive to achieve all that he has achieved.

His birth time is from his biography:

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Musk,_Elon

Source Notes

Malachy Gallagher emailed photos of a biography which states, "At 7:30 on the morning of June 28, 1971, Maye Musk gave birth to an eight-pound, eight-ounce boy with a very large head." (Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson, Simon & Schuster, 2023).

Previously his full name, date, year and country of birth were quoted from his son X's birth certificate, copy on file.

Some websites give a time of 6:30 AM without source. This might simply be a crude sunrise time, sunrise was at 6:58.

thanks ed

just thinking off the top of my head, what would happen if a planetary conjunction to the nodal axis was to be factored into the temperament analysis?? i have noticed a few important people who share this mars-north node in aquarius set up... julian assange, marco rubio and of course elon musk..you will have to do marcos rubio next!! then you have ( almost) the whole pantheon of movers and shakers in the new trump admin!!

no birth time for rubio however... https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Rubio,_Marco

it is interesting the results off the different software.. it stands to reason.. different input or requirements in the recipe, lead to different results... which one bakes the best muffin is the question! is ed the next betty crocker of the astrological world?? lol..

Hi James - in my experience the temperament calculation is about the classic triad of the Sun, Moon and Ascendant. Adding other factors tends to just add noise rather signal. I've no doubt the Mars/Node/Aquarius combination is relevant to the overall interpretation of the chart, but it doesn't relate to the placements of the Sun, Moon and Ascendant, unless, of course, Mars or Aquarius is tied into these factors according to one of the criteria.

Pity that there is no time for Rubio. Without some sort of time it's not possible to do the calculation. I don't know enough about him to attempt any sort of rectification.

Thanks as ever. Ed