Hello everyone,

I'm trying to delve deeper into astrocartography, and the topic of Parans seems like a special pain in the neck.

To anyone not familiar with Parans, here's a good explanation by the late Martin Davis:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/acg.html#:~ ... 7%20is%20a

Well, I have an issue with Parans for several reasons:
1.) If it's just the way planets position themselves in one of the angles, does it provide us with any extra information, on top of the relocation chart? A note here: the planetary paran angles don't seem to corresponde to the relocation chart, which is also unclear to me, as to why.
2.) When I check the parans, on the ACG map (say in the Solar Fire ACG module), I'm not so certain they seem to work, or corresponde to what the person experience/d there.
3.) I use Solar Maps (the SF9 program) and astro.com astro-click-travel. The problem with Solar Maps, is that it doesn't say which angle the paran planets are on. Anyone is familiar with a way to understand that from the Solar Maps? Or maybe from another program/site which isn't the one I've mentioned thus far?

If you'd like to reply to the points above, that would be great.
If you'd like to share your experience with parans in general, that would also be great.

Hi Dima Gur.

With reference to your point 1.

The difference in the representation of a planet's position in a relocation chart and an acg map is due to the phenomenon of celestial latitude. With the exception of the Sun, it is rare for planets to fall exactly on the ecliptic (i.e. have no celestial latitude). In the case of the Moon, Mercury, Mars and Pluto, their actual position in space (taking celestial longitude and celestial latitude into account) may be some distance from the ecliptic (either north or south of the ecliptic).

An acg map will generally show the position of a planet 'in mundo' - taking celestial latitude into account. So the acg line representing the rising position of a planet will show the actual geographical position where the body of the planet is crossing the horizontal plane. If you then look at a relocation chart for this place, the planet may appear to be a few degrees above or below the horizon. (Pluto, depending it's position in the zodiac, may appear a good distance from the horizon in a relocation chart even though it is actually right on the horizon when latitude is taken into account.)

Take a look at this thread to see these principles in action. If you scroll down to the bottom of the thread you will see examples where Pluto and Mars are on the horizon in the local horizon view but do not lie exactly on the horizon/ascendant in the chart wheel.

viewtopic.php?t=13009

Best wishes. Ed

Quote...
"For each of the ten planets there are four possible ways a planet can be in aspect to an axis – namely conjunct the Ascendant, Descendant, Medium Coeli or Imum Coeli. A total of 40 lines can be found on the Astrocartography map. The vertical straight lines show where planets are conjunct the Medium or Imum Coeli and the curved lines where they are conjunct the Ascendant and Descendant."

found here
https://www.astro.com/astrowiki/en/Astrocartography

Quote...
"4. Is it possible to gauge the relocation chart with the lines in the Astromaps?

To gauge relocation charts with Astrocartography maps is tricky, because the maps consider planetary latitude, while the charts don't. This is why the lines for planets with considerable latitude run off from where you might expect them."

found here
https://www.astro.com/faq/fq_fh_ac_maps_e.htm#4

Sorry, I haven't used Solar Fire since v7 Gold and so am not certain how, but you might be able to toggle between geocentric and topocentric positions for your various Charts and toggle between using mundane angles (as Astro*Carto*Graphy does) or using Ecliptic angles with Solar Maps.

Hope this helps

PNS

Ed
Thanks, it's more clear now.
I'll try to test my knowledge soon and maybe update this thread.

PNS
Thanks for the following link:
https://www.astro.com/faq/fq_fh_ac_maps_e.htm#4
Quite helpful.

I've found what I was looking for:

This is a quote from the appendix section (pages 325-6) of Jim Lewis' book, The Psychology of AstroCartoGraphy:

Another term for a paran is a mundane square, and the relationship is usually interpreted by those who use it as a neutral aspect that simply blends the natures of the two planets. More often than not in regular chart interpretation, a paran is considered to be potential more than actual, since the relationship is thought to be there even when the two planets ate not actually on angles at the time of the chart. In other words, what is important is the fact that the two planets could he simultaneously on angles at some future date were the chart either rotated diurnally or viewed from another locale than the birth place.

Here's an example.
This is the ACG for Trump's chart. For Orlando, Florida.
He has a Sun-Neptune Paran in there.
When we check the relocation chart (the chart wheel shown in white) it shows the Sun between AC to MC, and Neptune between AC to IC.
When we check in astro.com astro-click-travel module, we see that it says the paran is located as Sun on DC and Neptune on MC.



This is my issue with parans.
That they only show potential around that latitude, on planet earth, instead of pin pointing exact influences.

Another issue with parans is that Jim Lewis defined them (based on Cyril Fagan) as places on earth, in which there are intersections of a two planets, one with the Meridian (MC-IC axis) and the other with the horizon line (AC-DC axis).
In astro.com, astro-click-travel module, They also use planetary intersections of any angle, regardless if one of the angles is on the meridian and the other on the horizon. Such as Mars on DC and Jupiter on AC.

Would love to hear your thoughts about these matters.

This is my issue with parans.
That they only show potential around that latitude, on planet earth, instead of pin pointing exact influences.

You can use the midpoints from Ebertin (The combination of stellar influences)
SU/NE =
Sensitiveness, weakness, illness. Great disappointments, chaotic conditions, entanglements in scandals.
Or 'Rules for planetary pictures'
A body that is susceptible to disease or infection. Poor blood. Physical relaxation. Lack of life energy.
Or your own understanding of planetary aspects.

In astro.com, astro-click-travel module, They also use planetary intersections of any angle, regardless if one of the angles is on the meridian and the other on the horizon. Such as Mars on DC and Jupiter on AC.

Yes, in Solar Fire > Reports > Tabulation > Rise, Set Times, you can see that Neptune is culminating when Uranus, NN and Sun set.
Also, the Moon rises while the Sun, the Nodes and Uranus are setting. This is a Paran.

If you draw an horizontal line at the latitude, you will see where 2 planets are crossing, showing the Parans.

Ouranos

Hi Dima Gur

I think you are trying to compare two very different techniques. A relocation chart is simply a chart cast for the time of birth or an event but set for different geographical co-ordinates. In the case of Trump, the chart is moved south and to the west, but the relocation actually doesn't alter the relationship of the planets to the angles that much. This is why the Sun doesn't appear on the descendant and Neptune doesn't appear on the MC despite the relocation being close to the latitude of the Sun-Desc/Neptune-MC paran line.

To find the precise location where the Sun and Neptune do occupy these positions, you would have to move the chart to a spot on the surface of the Earth at this latitude, but at a very different longitude, either east or west. I don't have access to my PC at the moment so can't locate this place for you, but using astro-seek's astrocartography module, it looks like the place at which the paran is created (Sun on the desc, Neptune on the MC) is somewhere in southern Iran.

So to get a relocation chart to reflect the paran positions, you would have to cast the chart for the time of Trump's birth but in a location in southern Iran. You could try Kerman, Iran. This seems to get Sun and Neptune close to the required angles.

The paran line for each pair of planets represents the geographical latitude at which that paran is active over the course of a day. So as the earth rotates, the Sun will always be setting at this latitude as Neptune culminates. In Orlando, FL, this occurs about 9 hours 25 mins after Trump's birth time on the 14 June, or about 14 hours 35 mins before his birth on 13 June. If you cast a chart for Orlando or Sandford, FL, for 20:19 hours on either date you should find Sun and Neptune on their respective angles at these places.

Now, in the intervening hours, the Sun will always have been setting and Neptune always culminating at places along this latitude as the earth rotates. But it is only at this specific time that the Sun will have been setting with Neptune on the MC at these places in FL. I hope you can see now that simply relocating the chart for the birth time is not sufficient to bring the planets to the angles identified by the paran line (unless of course the relevant planets are on the angles at the specific time of birth at the relocation place).

Best wishes. Ed

Ed:
Ed hi, thanks for replying.

I've read your reply, a few times, but still some things remain unclear.
How come that specific Paran (the Sun-DC | Nep-MC paran of Trump) is only operative on that latitude, if in actuality it seems as if those specific planets, on those specific angles, are activated (actually setting and culminating) only in southern Iran?
Also, I've did some checks and it seems that above southern Iran, areas around the same LONGITUDE also have the Sun as setting and Neptune culminating. Say the Russian city of Yekaterinburg (up north).
Admittedly, the relocation chart does show more 'exact hits' for southern Iran than for Yekaterinburg. Meaning, that Neptune is smack on the MC and the Sun smack on the DC in Iran). Is that the big difference and what constitutes a paran? The partile conjunctions with angles, on that latitude line.

Also, how come, or who determines that this paran for Trump is Sun-DC and Nep-MC?
I've checked Trump's chart for that paran in different places worldwide, on that latitude line and it seems that the Sun-Nep combination appears on different angles near Morocco, in the Canary islands, and south west of California along the line.
So is it truly a Sun-DC | Nep-MC line, or is it a general Sun-Nep (rising/setting/culminating/anti-culminating) line?
---
I'm looking in the attached picture by Ouranos. The set/rise times of Neptune and Sun.
It does seem that Neptune culminates and Sun sets the closest to each other, in terms of time (half an hour gap). If, say, we compare it to to Sun culminating and Neptune rising (1 hour gap).
This seems important.

About the difference between the relocation chart and the ACG.
As far as I understand, the relocation chart should be a reflection of the ACG view (the ACG map), for a given location at the time the individual was born (or the chart was cast). If this is true, the relocation chart should reflect the ACG map lines, without the factor of latitude, as it's explained in the following link:
https://www.astro.com/faq/fq_fh_ac_maps_e.htm#4
Ed, can this account for what you're trying to explain?
It seems as if the latitude in question refers to latitude relative to the ecliptic plane, while here we're talking about latitude on earth.

Hi Dima Gur - here is a preliminary reply for you. I apologise for the delay in responding.

Is that the big difference and what constitutes a paran? The partile conjunctions with angles, on that latitude line.

This is right. The reason why the geographical latitude is critical is that it is only at this geo latitude that Neptune is precisely on the meridian and the Sun is precisely on the horizon. At all other geo latitudes on this geo longitude in the northern hemisphere the two planets will be more or less close to the angles but not precisely on them. Hence your findings for Yekaterinburg.

I've checked Trump's chart for that paran in different places worldwide, on that latitude line and it seems that the Sun-Nep combination appears on different angles near Morocco, in the Canary islands, and south west of California along the line.

It might be helpful to post some charts here. Here is a chart set for Puerto del Carmen on Lanzarote, at the geo latitude of 28 N 55 (the same as Sanford, FL). However the chart time has to be corrected to bring Neptune to the MC (right ascension of Neptune = right ascension of the MC). You will see that both Neptune and Sun are close to the required angles. So at 19:49 GMT/UT on Trump's birthday Neptune culminates and the Sun sets at this geo longitude and geo latitude. (Time zones can play havoc with getting these charts right so sometimes it is best to work in GMT/UT thereby eliminating the zone correction factor. For reference, Trump was born at 14:54 GMT/UT).


It's important to remember that we are dealing with time as a dynamic factor when working like this. Trump was born at a discrete moment in time, and at that moment Neptune was on the MC and the Sun on the descendant (precisely) in southern Iran. This doesn't mean that the planets are on those angles at geo latitude 28 N 55 everywhere in the world at this time. This would mean the Sun was setting everywhere in the world at the same time. These planets are only brought to the angles at this geo latitude as the earth continues to rotate. This is why we need to adjust the time for which the chart is drawn (to mimic the rotation of the earth following Trump's birth) to find the pair of planets on the relevant angles in the Canaries at 28 N 55.

When the Sun sets in the Canaries on this day, it will be dark in southern Iran (remember the Sun was setting at an earlier time) and it will still be daylight in FL, USA. The Sun will only set in FL after some more time has elapsed as the earth continues to rotate.

I'm looking in the attached picture by Ouranos. The set/rise times of Neptune and Sun.

Yes, close, but not exactly the same, since Ouranus has used the geo co-ordinates for Jamaica, NYC, the place of Trump's birth. The same table for Sanford, FL, would show the time for Neptune culminating and Sun setting within a few minutes (or less) of each other.

As far as I understand, the relocation chart should be a reflection of the ACG view (the ACG map), for a given location at the time the individual was born (or the chart was cast).

I don't really understand this point I'm afraid. I think this might be the point at which the misunderstandings are arising. The relocation chart is not the same as an ACG chart. The relocation chart will only use the positions of the planets in zodiacal longitude at a fixed moment in time at a particular geo location. The ACG map will use both zodiacal longitude and celestial latitude to place the planets on the angles across the surface of the earth.

The ACG map shows both time and space, not just time. (It's not quite that simple, but let's say that the natal chart takes care of the space element by being set at a specific location on the surface of the earth.)

I hope that helps. Ed

Hi Dima Gur - here is the situation for Trump in Sanford, FL, at sunset on his birthday. You can see that Neptune culminates and Sun sets within a few minutes of each other at around 19:20 in the evening. This is why simply relocating the chart to Sanford, FL, for the time of Trump's birth does not reveal the Sun-Neptune paran in this place.

The paran at this latitude tells us that the Sun will set with Neptune culminating during the course of the day. However, because Trump was not born in Sanford, FL, at this time, but in Jamaica, NYC, 10:54 in the morning, the paran is not shown in the birth chart. (If relocating Trump's birth chart to Sanford at 10:54 did show the sun setting and Neptune culminating, it would have to be mid-morning in NYC and twilight in FL - clearly this is impossible even in a country as big as the USA.)


Here is the chart set for Sanford, FL, at this time.


You will notice, if you look very closely at the chart above, that whilst the Sun is precisely on the horizon (setting), Neptune does not appear exactly on the meridian (culminating). This illustrates the critical point: the natal chart does not take account of the celestial latitude of the planet when displaying it's position. Now the Sun never has any celestial latitude - it is always moving on the plane of the ecliptic. However Neptune, on this day, has a celestial latitude of 1.5 degrees north of the ecliptic. Given that the MC, a point that always has 0 degrees of celestial latitude (it is a point on the ecliptic), there will be a variation in the position of Neptune in relation to the MC/meridian (when shown in the natal chart) because Neptune does not lie on the ecliptic. It is not occupying the same point in space as the MC degree.

It is essential to understand that the birth chart is constructed using the assumption that all planets and points displayed in the wheel lie precisely on the ecliptic (i.e. have 0 degrees of celestial latitude). We know that this is not actually true for most planets and points - only the Sun, ascendant, MC and nodes have 0 degrees of celestial latitude. All other planets will have varying degrees of celestial latitude, north or south of the ecliptic.

The following local horizon chart, which does take account of zodiacal longitude and celestial latitude when displaying the position of the planets, shows Neptune exactly on the meridian in Sanford, FL, at the same time that the Sun sets in that place. The strict definition of 'culminating' is the point in time when a celestial body crosses the upper meridian of the place. This is what Neptune is doing at this time, even though it is not on the zodiacal MC. Remember - the MC has no celestial latitude and Neptune has 1.5 degrees of celestial latitude north of the ecliptic. This accounts for the difference when Neptune is presented in relation to the position of the MC in the birth chart wheel at this time and place.


I suggest you click on the local horizon chart above. This will open it full size and you can examine it in more detail. Look particularly at the points marked MC and Neptune. They are both on the meridian (vertical line running from the top to the bottom of the chart), but note that Neptune's position is above the MC's position. Both lie on the meridian but they do not occupy the same point in space. This is because of the phenomenon of celestial latitude. Neptune is above the plane of the ecliptic (curving red line). This indicates that it has northerly celestial latitude. If its marker appeared below the MC, this would indicate that it had southerly celestial latitude.

We could draw any number of charts for the relevant local time in the day (when the sun sets and Neptune culminates) along this geo latitude from southern Iran to Sanford, FL, to illustrate these points. However, hopefully demonstrations for the Canaries and Sanford, FL, show the principles clearly.

If you are asking about the interpretative value of using parans in this way, that's another question. I guess the theory is that this geo latitude is 'imprinted' with the energy of Sun setting and Neptune culminating on Trump's birthday. This is because at whatever geo longitude a chart is set for on this day (using a geo latitude of 28 N 55), if the sun is setting at that place Neptune will also be culminating. Whether this particular paran has interpretative value might be influenced by whether the planets in question come to the relevant angles within the course of Trump's lifetime, perhaps by primary directions.

All the best. Ed

For reference.

There is a major paran that forms at around 7:49AM (3 hrs and 5 mins) before Trump's birth time at his birth place. Saturn and Venus rise as Neptune anti-culminates (crosses the IC). This indicates that this combination of planets in Trump's birth chart might have especial significance during the course of his life as the paran was operative throughout the day at the latitude of his birth.




Of course the paran was formed in Jamaica, NYC, before Trump was born so it will not perfect by primary direction during the course of his life. However it may well be worth exploring this signature paran in greater detail as one of primary key's to understanding Trump's horoscope.

Here is the same chart presented in the local horizon format, with all positions taking account of zodiacal longitude and celestial latitude. Set for Trump's birthplace in Jamaica, NYC, at 07:49 in the morning.


Click on the image and see the full size version. It is somewhat difficult to see the detail, but you should be able to pick out Venus and Saturn clustered on the horizon near the ascendant (AS glyph). To find Neptune on the IC, move across to the extreme right of the chart and look below the horizon. Neptune's marker represents its position on the IC.

The paran was 'live' at the time of Trump's birth in the vicinity of Reno, NV. Reno is actually a little bit south of the geo latitude of Jamaica, NYC, but it's close enough to see the paran in action. Reno is about 56 degrees west of Trump's birthplace. Local time would have been 06:54AM (14:54 GMT).




Ed