Hi

I'm reading Annual predictive techniques by Martin Gansten.
It's an interesting book but I'm uncomfortable with combining profections with Primary directions from the rising sign like he does ,as birthtimes are normally off and a single minute can make a huge difference on bounds through the signs.
I wonder why he is so confident in this methodology.?

Regards

Misho wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 12:50 am Hi

I'm reading Annual predictive techniques by Martin Gansten.
It's an interesting book but I'm uncomfortable with combining profections with Primary directions from the rising sign like he does ,as birthtimes are normally off and a single minute can make a huge difference on bounds through the signs.
I wonder why he is so confident in this methodology.?
Regards

Hi Misho,
Just to mention, Martin Gansten is an active poster here. If he sees your question, I’m sure he’ll be able to shed some light on his approach directly.

A one-minute discrepancy in the birth time corresponds, on average, to some three months of life. (This can vary according to the latitude of birth and the sign rising.) I wouldn't call that huge, but it is always a good idea to check previous directions against the native's life history before using the chart for prediction.

Combining directions, profections and revolutions is a standard procedure found in many medieval authors such as al-Andarzaghar, Abū Maʿshar, ar-Rijāl, etc., but my confidence in it comes from seeing it work, repeatedly and consistently.

AJ wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:13 am

Misho wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 12:50 am Hi

I'm reading Annual predictive techniques by Martin Gansten.
It's an interesting book but I'm uncomfortable with combining profections with Primary directions from the rising sign like he does ,as birthtimes are normally off and a single minute can make a huge difference on bounds through the signs.
I wonder why he is so confident in this methodology.?
Regards

Hi Misho,
Just to mention, Martin Gansten is an active poster here. If he sees your question, I’m sure he’ll be able to shed some light on his approach directly.

Thanks Deb

Martin Gansten wrote: Sun Apr 27, 2025 1:29 pm A one-minute discrepancy in the birth time corresponds, on average, to some three months of life. (This can vary according to the latitude of birth and the sign rising.) I wouldn't call that huge, but it is always a good idea to check previous directions against the native's life history before using the chart for prediction.

Combining directions, profections and revolutions is a standard procedure found in many medieval authors such as al-Andarzaghar, Abū Maʿshar, ar-Rijāl, etc., but my confidence in it comes from seeing it work, repeatedly and consistently.

In my case it changes bounds. I'm not sure if I'm in a Jupiter or Saturn bound at 63. Directed Asc would be at 0 Leo opposite natal Saturn in 9th if birthtime is correct.
I'm going through a faith crisis but I thought that might be due to Pluto going through that house.
If it helps I lost a sibling on 1st february 2023

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/calcu ... abs_redraw

Misho wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:44 pm In my case it changes bounds. I'm not sure if I'm in a Jupiter or Saturn bound at 63. Directed Asc would be at 0 Leo opposite natal Saturn in 9th if birthtime is correct.
I'm going through a faith crisis but I thought that might be due to Pluto going through that house.
If it helps I lost a sibling on 1st february 2023

I'm sorry about your loss. Since I use a sidereal zodiac, the terms will be different from what you see, but everything else will remain the same. Irrespective of what terms your ascendant is currently passing through, the opposition to Saturn (and Mercury) in the 9th sounds very appropriate for a crisis of faith to me. The loss of your sibling would have occurred as the ascendant was directed through the sidereal terms of Mars in the 3rd house itself (with Mars placed in the 8th).

Martin Gansten wrote: Thu May 01, 2025 8:08 am

Misho wrote: Wed Apr 30, 2025 5:44 pm In my case it changes bounds. I'm not sure if I'm in a Jupiter or Saturn bound at 63. Directed Asc would be at 0 Leo opposite natal Saturn in 9th if birthtime is correct.
I'm going through a faith crisis but I thought that might be due to Pluto going through that house.
If it helps I lost a sibling on 1st february 2023

I'm sorry about your loss. Since I use a sidereal zodiac, the terms will be different from what you see, but everything else will remain the same. Irrespective of what terms your ascendant is currently passing through, the opposition to Saturn (and Mercury) in the 9th sounds very appropriate for a crisis of faith to me. The loss of your sibling would have occurred as the ascendant was directed through the sidereal terms of Mars in the 3rd house itself (with Mars placed in the 8th).

Thanks
Where can I find the terms used by vedic astrologers?
I think the Auanamsa is 23 degrees cause.my Lagna is at 9 Taurus. From what I see her death was right at the start of Mars bound.

https://horoscopes.astro-seek.com/calcu ... abs_redraw

My sisters chart seems to work with both. Using sideral she was in Saturn bound ruler of the 8th. With tropical the Asc came to natal Venus retrogade in fall which rules the annual profection of the 4th house. The end of life

The pre-Islamic Indian version of the terms, called triṃśāṃśa, is found in all introductory texts; but the Indian astrologers didn't use primary directions. The Sanskritized version of Perso-Arabic astrology (Tājika), like most Greek- and Arabic-language sources, uses the so-called Egyptian terms (called hadda, from the Arabic ḥadd), with one or two minor differences which may be errors of transmission. Some Tājika texts contain traces of directions, but the technique wasn't properly understood and soon disappeared.

In my personal practice, I use the precessional value (ayanāṃśa) of Krishnamurti, which agrees most closely with my (astrological) observations, and the 'Egyptian' terms.

Martin Gansten wrote: Fri May 02, 2025 6:01 pm In my personal practice, I use the precessional value (ayanāṃśa) of Krishnamurti, which agrees most closely with my (astrological) observations, and the 'Egyptian' terms.

Martin: I’ve been following your work with interest, and I’ve been wondering—if your approach is rooted in ancient Western techniques, why are you using a 'modern' Indian ayanamsa rather than one of the historical Western ones, like Usha Shashi, Sassanian, or even the Hipparchus-based models, or even Fagan-Allen for that matter?

Raymond Mercier concludes that multiple ancient astronomical traditions—Greek, Indian, Persian, and Arabic—converged on a sidereal zero point located just east of Zeta Piscium, likely originating with Hipparchus. Despite differences in methods, this shared reference point underlies ayanamshas like Hipparchus’, Ushā-Shashī, and the Sassanian, revealing a deep cross-cultural continuity in sidereal zodiac definition, which is very roughly about 3 and a half degrees greater than Krishnamurti in modern times. These western ayanamsas are approximately close to traditional Indian ayanamsas like the one attributed to Aryabhata.

From what I understand, your broader framework draws heavily from Hellenistic and Persian sources (correct me if I'm wrong), so the choice of an Indian ayanamsa seems a bit out of step with that lineage. I know you stated that Krishnamurti agrees most closely with your astrological observations, but I’d be genuinely interested in hearing your thinking on this.

Best wishes.

If you have been following my work, you may have read the book that the title of this thread refers to, in which I mention my objections to the term 'western astrology'. In my opinion there is no western tradition of astrology, in any meaningful sense, until the early modern period. The astrology that I do would have seemed quite familiar to a medieval Persian astrologer, but that style in itself contains elements derived both from India and directly from the Hellenistic world. There are no 'pure' astrological lineages, nor any real east/west divide; rather, as Pingree said, the transmission of astrology progressed 'in appropriate circles'.

In my opinion, the ayanāṃśa question can't be divorced from the overall calculation of planetary longitudes, where we all (presumably) use modern values rather than, say, the Perpetual Tables or a medieval zīj. I vaguely recalled an old but interesting paper by Therese Hamilton where she found modern recalculation of longitudes with the Krishnamurti ayanāṃśa often to be the best match for longitudes given in Babylonian tablets, and after some searching I found it here. If memory serves, I have also seen a similar comparison (by Therese or someone else) based on early Arabic-language charts, perhaps from Māshāʾallāh. Sorry to be so vague, but this is just from memory; perhaps someone else knows what I mean and can give the reference.

I don't think there is a value in adhering to ancient (or medieval) astronomical/mathematical models as such. Doing so could land us in some very odd positions (trepidation, anyone?). For instance, Vettius Valens explicitly supports the Babylonian definition of 0° Aries as located 8° prior to the equinox, which he clearly regards as a fixed value. This is neither Ptolemy's tropical zodiac nor a sidereal definition in the modern sense, because Valens didn't understand precession. But I'm not aware of any modern Hellenistic-style astrologers actually using Valens' preferred zodiac when applying his techniques.

Martin: Thank you for your informative reply. There's a lot to unpack, and I’ll be responding to a few points over the coming days.

Martin wrote:

I vaguely recalled an old but interesting paper by Therese Hamilton where she found modern recalculation of longitudes with the Krishnamurti ayanāṃśa often to be the best match for longitudes given in Babylonian tablets, and after some searching I found it here. If memory serves, I have also seen a similar comparison (by Therese or someone else) based on early Arabic-language charts, perhaps from Māshāʾallāh.

Martin, thanks for the reference to that old article of mine. I don't know if this is what you are referring to, but about ten years ago there was a discussion here on Skyscript about the charts in Māshāʾallāh's On Reception (Robert Hand translator, Arhat, 1998). These charts turned out to be computed in a zodiac similar to Raman's zodiac of today where zeta Pisces falls at 27 ° 28' in Pisces.

The charts were definitely not tropical as the longitudes of tropical planets are 5-6 degrees greater than Māshāʾallāh. The position (longitude) of planets in On Reception revolved around Raman's positions, some a degree less, some a degree higher, some the same degree. There are six charts in total. The Raman longitudes of Jupiter ranged from partile (no difference) to 37 minutes of Māshāʾallāh's position.

I can't find this discussion on Skyscript as a search brings up no posts between 2024 and 2010. But I have the charts in hard copy in my files. (I vaguely recall a discussion on Skyscript with instructions on how to bring up all past Skyscript posts if someone can remember.)