I thought I would give this a shot, even though we are usually warned against judging 3rd party-type questions, and this one is fairly dodgy in every standard. But if I don't try it, how will I know?

The question was, "Has Mr. X recommitted to his wife?", asked by someone who had previously been deeply emotionally involved with Mr. X (who was/apparently still is) married with children. The relationship broke up a couple of years ago at the instigation of the quesitor, but she is still 'hung up' on Mr X and I suspect the root of the question may have some other issues attached, for which I would be grateful for your observations. My understanding of the question is that she is actually asking about the state of Mr. X's marriage in the hope that he may eventually be 'free' again, the lack of 'freedom' together apparently being the reason she broke it off in the first place. Like I said, the question is a bit dubious, but I said I'd try. So ...

http://www.astro.com/cgi/showgif.cgi?la ... res=75&va=

Should the link not work, it was asked at 16.30hrs on 9 Oct 2006 in Comberton, ENG, and I still can't figure out how to attach the actual chart!

Aquarius ascends; Solar hour. L1 occupies Sun's sign, which I took as a green-ish light. Being that this is 3rd party, I took L1 for Mr X and L7 for wife, although I suppose they might be switched. L1 and L7 are both posited in House 7, appropo of their married status; as well, Sun (wife), Mars (man) and Venus (woman) are all in Libra, the sign of marriage. L1 and L7 are both in bad shape by detriment and fall, but have strong mutual reception by rulership/exaltation. Venus is in rulership but combust, as is Mars. Juno and Fortuna also occupy H7. I took this to mean that yes, they are certainly still married (application also by sextile e.g. renewed commitment?), but that neither of them are particularly over the moon in it. But wait ...

What intrigued me and made me think that even dodgy 3rd party questions do have some viability is Neptune smack on the Asc. aspecting everything in the chart. Certainly there has been deception, but this appears to be an 'active' aspect as L7 is applying. Normally I ignore the outer planets as I have a streak of traditionalist about me, but this one I couldn't ignore. But what does it mean? That both husband and wife are deceiving themselves? Wife as L7 is deceiving Mr X as L1? Or vice-versa?

The moon doesn't help. Although exalted in Taurus, it squares everything from H2. What does this mean, I ask? Do I take the Moon as the ASKER of the question in this matter (eg the mourning ex-lover), or do I take it as the ACTION or intent of the question to hand?

So while my initial interpretation got off to a pretty good start, it starts fizzling when I try to figure out where the Moon is taking this question (H2 values? Perhaps money as security?) and what Neptune is telling me by squaring and opposing everything else....

Can anyone else help me take this a little further?

Thanks!!!

Having thought about this further, I wonder if the Moon doesn't represent the actual querent. While she is in a strong position as exalted, she applies by fixed square to L1 Mr. X, who although strong by angle is in detriment. If we take this question as I suspect it should be taken, perhaps it means that her hopes won't be fulfilled; things are 'fixed' as they are, with the marriage, despite the state of the players, taking precedence.

Can anyone else add to this?

Thanks!

Hi archergirl,

A couple of things jumped out at me here:

1. The querent gets the 1st house, as she is the one asking the question. The real question here is about her and Mr X, not Mr X and his wife. So she is Lord 1 and he is Lord 7. Seeing Lord 1 inside the 7th house makes perfect sense here as she is still "hung up" on him and also under his control (Lord 1 inside the 7th cusp).

2. Neptune on the Asc is very prominent here - I would intepret this as a classic indicator of the querent wearing rose-tinted glasses and lacking the ability to see the truth of the situation.

3. Yes, the Moon does signify the querent, specifically her emotional state. The Moon applies only to square Saturn, showing the querent. I would intepret this square as the conflict between her head and heart, and showing her distressed state in general.

4. There is a promising mutual reception between Lord 1 and Lord 7: Lord 7 is in the exaltation and triplicity of Lord 1, a promising sign that Mr X still has fond feelings for the querent. However, the Sun is closely conjunct two other planets, Venus and Mars. I would take one of these to show his wife, probably Venus as the natural ruler of wives. As Venus is under the Sunbeams and the Sun is in Venus' sign, I think this shows a powerful relationship between Mr X and his wife. Venus applies to the conjunction, a sign that the relationship will continue to be strong.

5. If we take Venus to show the wife, then the Moon being in the sign of Venus makes perfect sense. The querent's feelings for Mr X are controlled by the presence of the wife - as you mentioned in your post, the relationship broke up because Mr X was not "free".

6. There is promise here as Lord 7 applies to sextile Lord 1, but as both planets lack essential dignity I would judge that they lack the strength to act, i.e. there may be some opportunity for a reconciliation but due to the weakened condition of the persons involved this will not happen.

7. I do wonder what Mars represents - the Sun applies to conjunct Mars - here he is Lord 2, which can sometimes show a person's self esteem. The position of Lord 2 in the 2nd house of Mr X could show that the querent's self-esteem is all bound up with this relationship. Either that or she has been giving him money!

To sum up: The querent and Mr X are still very "hung up" on each other. However, I doubt very much he will leave his wife.

I hope you found this helpful

Ooh, wey hey! That was better than I hoped for!

I think I agree with you in your appraisal of L1 as querent and not Mr. X as I had felt that the underlying question was more about the quesitor and Mr. X than Mr. X + Wife, but thought I would try to get a feel for how to interpret 3rd party questions. I guess the problem with that is, that it's not a 'disinterested' 3rd party question; rather, an OVER-interested 3rd party!

If we use L1 for the *querent*, then having Neptune on the Asc does make perfect sense, especially as it squares L7 and the 'people' surrounding him... the querent perhaps deluding herself as to the strength of the marriage?

I am also wondering about the significance of Mars with L7, however. Mars is the ruler of divorce, and in the sign and house of marriage (depending on chart configurations...). Mr. X headed for divorce? I haven't checked the ephemeris, but I'm betting Venus gets to the Sun before the Sun gets to Mars... truly elegant, if so.

Thanks a bunch!
AG

Oh, well this gets more interesting. If we do take Mars as the significator for divorce, the Sun reaches Mars before Venus can reach the Sun! However, all of this takes place at the *very end of Libra/very beginning of Virgo*, like, 29 degrees 32 mins - 0 degrees 44 mins.

What, I ask, does this mean?

Anyone? Any ideas? Am I still barking up the wrong tree?

I still don't see the marriage breaking up any time soon. The Sun and Venus are in the middle of the sign... okay, so it's cardinal, but they're still in the middle. In horary we can take a whole sign to show "a while". If the planets were at the end of the sign then we would judge differently - the end of a sign shows imminent change, the beginning things that have just begun, while the middle shows a situation that will continue for some time yet. The prescence of Mars might show disruption and prickliness around Mr X (and no wonder - he's still hung up on the querent!) but this conjunction does not perfect until the planets change sign into Scorpio. Here the balance of power shifts completely - Mars is very strong while Venus enters her detriment. The Sun is peregrine, but more importantly has lost his Venus and Saturn dignities, showing he is no longer under the power of his wife... More relevant is the fact that he is no longer "hung up" on the querent!

I would interpret the change of sign coupled with the conjunction to Mars as *possibly* the marriage breaking up, and certainly problems, but not for a while yet (we're talking months here). Don't forget that Venus and the Sun enter Scorpio very close together - they will continue to be closely conjunct for some time yet. So even though the receptions have changed and Mars is involved, Venus (the wife) will still be very much in Mr X's life.

If we have to look this far ahead in time to satisfy the querent's curiosity, then so be it. However, she is still misguided about the whole thing (Neptune on Asc. very important - you're right, AG, she is totally deluded about the situation), and even if his marriage fails, as shown by the Mars conjunction and movement into Scorpio, don't forget that this means he loses his Saturn dignities too - i.e. he will no longer be interested in the querent, regardless of the situation with his marriage.

My advice to the querent is to take off those rose-tinted glasses, stay well away and get on with her life. We don't need a chart to show us that an affair with a married man will cause nothing but heartache for all concerned.

Oh, oops, I *did* mean Scorpio, not Virgo... .

I completely agree with your assessment, KH. It's a sketchy situation at best, although I suppose we can't help who we fall in love with! I've passed on this discussion to her; she wasn't too pleased with the result but she also acknowledged that she's wearing those rose-tinted spectacles still. Maybe this will encourage her to move on.

Very many thanks for all your input!

And further, I don't know *why* I keep writing 'quesitor' instead of 'querent'!! I have some strange brain-blockage going on!!

Thanks again!

I was going to post something earlier to this topic, but everyone had already said what I was going to say. But then I took a look back at a very similar chart that I had done just about a year ago.

First, I totally agree with the consensus that this really isn?t a question about a third person. Fundamentally, it?s a question about the querent?s relationship with Mr. X.

So the center of this judgment would be the applying sextile between the querent (Saturn) and Mr. X (the Sun). Since Saturn is in it?s detriment and the Sun is in its fall, my gut feeling was to say that this means that not much will come about from this contact. Now I?d have to change my opinion to say that not much of lasting good can come out of this, and that?s a big difference. First let?s look at what we have here.

The Sun is in the sign of Saturn?s exaltation, triplicity and face, while Saturn is in the Sun?s sign of rulership and triplicity. There is some question as to whether this can be called reception because we?re dealing with planets that are in their detriment of fall. But setting aside that, anyone can see that there is a strong connection between these two planets, made even stronger by the applying sextile.

My gut reaction would have been to say that maybe the querent and Mr. X just experience some strong feelings for each other, or that they meet up and the old spark just isn?t there and they go their separate ways, or that they try to meet up but something comes up or one person changes their mind. That was my first reaction as to how to read an applying sextile by two debilitated planets with all these strong connections.

Then I looked at a chart I had from last year. The querent was told ?I don?t want to see you again, not for a long while at least? by her Mr. X, and she was also told that there was another woman in the situation too. The chart?s data is September 29, 2005, 1:25 AM, Potomac, Maryland, 39?N01'05'', 077?W12'32'', +4 hours GMT. We have an ASC of 27? Cancer.

Though there are a lot of differences between these two charts, we have almost the same applying sextile of the Sun to Saturn. We have the querent as the Moon separating from Saturn, so she?s clearly on her way out. I took the Sun to be the other woman. Let?s set aside the differences between the two charts and just look at this aspect. The Sun is in Saturn?s exaltation and its own fall, while Saturn is in the Sun?s sign of rulership and its own detriment. But Saturn is in its own face, so it?s not peregrine. So it?s not the same as in the first chart here. The connections by being in each other?s signs are not as strong here, and Saturn is not peregrine.

At the time I told the querent that she had lost this guy as far as this chart is concerned, but that the new relationship that her Mr. X had just started looked fairly ominous to me. I told her that I saw that they had a very strong attraction to each other, and that they would go ahead with it, but that it would turn out to be bad for each other. I thought about the phrase ?like a moth to flame? or that this was almost like a kind of fatal attraction. I emphasize the word almost here, because the real fatal attraction relationships are showed more clearly by an opposition from unfriendly places, such as an opposition of the Sun in Aquarius to Saturn in Leo. From that scenario, I?d expect some real firework, and maybe even some violence, or at least some really bad arguments. But from this chart that for my client I thought that this Mr. X and his new woman would get along easily, but maybe too easily as they really weren?t meant for each other.

The last I had heard from this client was in July, so about ten months had passed since the chart. She had not reconciled with her Mr. X. Mr. X and his new woman were still together, though she said that he was complaining about things with her. I don?t know much factual information about this relationship between this Mr. X and his current girlfriend, but I?d stand by my judgment that those two had a strong bond, even if it ultimately was not good for each other.

So back to my main point here about the querent in this current chart that started this whole discussion.

Just based on my experience, I wouldn?t say that nothing will come about between her and her Mr. X. They do have a lot of attraction as shown by their applying sextile and their positions in each other?s signs. There is a real chance that they will get back together, and maybe even surprisingly easily, as this is a sextile. But it still won?t be a good thing for either of them.

Here?s where the differences between these two charts start to play out. The Moon here has just separated from an opposition to Jupiter and is applying to square Saturn. Has the querent recently had a fight with a friend, as Jupiter rules the 11th house? And though the Sun is applying to Saturn and that will prohibit the Sun?s move to be conjunct Mars, still the Sun is already within orb with Mars and will soon after that be conjunct with him. I?m not sure who Mars could be, but I?d reckon that it?s someone else who?s close to Mr. X; perhaps it represents his children. Venus is almost certainly his wife, as the ruler of the sign they?re all in, and also as a planet who is applying to the Sun. In other words, the situation is a real mess. It looks like that whatever happens between the querent and Mr. X will be thwarted soon after by others, probably by his concern for his wife and kids.

My main point here is to remind everyone, myself included that such an aspect between the a well-connected but debilitated pair of planets like the Sun and Saturn does not imply that nothing will happen, just that nothing permanent or good can come from it, and that?s a big difference. And this big difference would compel us to give the client some clear advice that she may get the opportunity that she wants, but that she should be on her guard to resist that temptation.

Cracking advice from both of you!

I did a similar chart a year or so ago where the two significators, Venus and Mars, were opposed from the 1st and 7th and in each other's sign (Taurus and Scorpio). This was a much clearer indication of that 'fatal attraction' relationship you spoke of, Mark, and I warned the client thus: however compelling the attraction, it was a relationship marked for disaster. I now have a better understanding of what a so-called 'friendly' aspect such as a sextile does when the significators are in such poor shape. Like junk food: tastes good, but bad for your health!

So how did that other chart with the Mars-Venus opposition turn out?

I'd guess that either way, these kinds of strongly attached but negative aspects show more or less the same thing - that something is likely to develop but that it's not something that will be good for either of them in the long term. The aspect by opposition would involve more fireworks, but in a way the sextile one could be even more dangerous, but only in the sense that there would be less obvious warning signs for both parties. With a sextile they could get involved that much easier. So these easy aspects like sextiles aren't always good for you. Deb once told me that the sinking of the Titanic involved a trine - it went into the water easily.

With an opposition, I'd expect to see a relationship that even outside observers can tell was bad, with fighting and a real element of risk. And the people involved would be very aware that the thing was destructive but they'd be pretty near powerless to stop it. With a sextile, things might not seem as obviously bad, to the outside world and to those involved. Maybe they'd experience it as some quiet and deep-seated nagging doubts about each other, and as something bad that builds up over time.

But these are all just statements in general. Each chart has to be read individually. The chart that I talked about showed no signs of anything else prohibiting the relationship. The chart that Archergirl presented did show some obstacles in the way of the querent.

The Venus-Mars relationship went as expected, except that there was no 'violence' to speak of. In that chart the moon in Taurus applied by conjunction to Mars L1 in H7 (opposing L7 Venus in H1). They had one 'final' meeting where they abruptly decided that it was too painful to keep seeing one another (I think there was something along the same lines as your chart, MarkF, where they said, 'Don't want to see you again for a very long time', except the querent told me the exact words were, "You have to pretend I'm dead." Very Scorpionic, no?). The last I heard they still hadn't gotten back together, and there were some very bitter feelings left over by the whole thing. Doesn't Lilly say something about this type of relationship, like two drunks trying to help each other but wind up brawling instead?

Ah, the tempests of the human heart.