Alex, not sure if this is relevant, but perhaps the combust Mercury means that that is where the issues will be? Since my husband has Mercury in Cancer and mine is in Libra I would say that is our biggest issue, trying to understand one another. The helpful factors in our particular instance are my Mars and Venus in water signs and his in fire and air. So far, we have been able to work through it, in fact working on it is how we fell in love. He's the only man I've ever met who listened to what I was saying processed it and said he was sorry for misunderstanding.

Oh, and I would say the moon trining venus is the great aspect that you are talking about?

Hi Labalance

?.perhaps the combust Mercury means that that is where the issues will be? Since my husband has Mercury in Cancer and mine is in Libra I would say that is our biggest issue, trying to understand one another.

Sounds like a good interpretaion ? wedding mercury and sun are in different signs (water and air) just like the elements in your natal merc's)?......

He's the only man I've ever met who listened to what I was saying processed it and said he was sorry for misunderstanding.

...?.and mercury-sun?s applying sextile to Jupiter (mercury?s exalt ruler in mercury?s sign, virgo) leads to peaceful and kind understanding. The minor dignities for sun-merc are also helpful. Also sounds like the wedding electional Moon's strength in Cancer sets a fertile receptive ground for calm listening and nurturing.

?I would say the moon trining venus is the great aspect that you are talking about?

Yes ! But that alone does not make the aspect ?choice??there is more

I shall return soon with the details

Alex

Hi again and thanks again to all

MarG

It doesn't matter where the ceremony is taking place, or if religious or civil. As I mentioned before, the signing of the wedding certificate is a legal formality after the fact, they are already married.

Sorry if I made a long dicourse for something we are all clear about... I guess (not being a native anglo-phone) I didn't really understand the word 'fact' in this context.. it's a bit confusing.


Thanks very much for the hint to the article - that is very very useful!


Alex

Are you including triplicity, term and face when you look for essential dignity? Even the opposite sect triplicity lord, night trip lords for day chart?

Erm... opposite sect triplicity lords..? ..reversed day/night lords...? Never heard of them I'm afraid.. Clearly there is so much more to learn first...

I have seen both Moon and Venus in detriment (in the same happy wedding chart!) but in dignity by triplicity and term (and sextile) which IMO makes a difference.

Hmm yes, that makes sense. I suppose every little helps...
Thanks so much for all your input. As the matter stands and develops, I have just been informed that the civil ceremony has to be on a weekend, (Saturday probably) in Spring. If it's to be in a waxing Moon, this will narrow things considerably, which, will make my job a lot easier and quicker! In these cases one just looks for the least disturbed, I suppose..

Rachel

For hundreds of years (more?) the bride had no ?I do or don?t? option, because she was never asked to agree to a vow or sign anything (so I was told by an anthropology professor). Sometimes women had a say in the engagement, but were often silent in the actual ceremony;

In a Muslim ceremony, an official from a mosque first asks consent from the groom, who is most likely in a different room, and then comes to the bride and asks consent from her. Consent has to be provided 3 times by each party, and the two are not in the same room. This kind of ceremony usually takes place at the bride's home and can span 15 minutes or more, with the groom consenting in the first 5 minutes, and the bride consenting in the latter 5. A "Muslim" marriage certificate is also signed by both parties the same day, but that is done at the same time as consent is provided, hence at "different" times by the bride and groom.

However, this ceremony does not create a "legal" marriage in the United States. The couple still have to sign the legal marriage certificate in the presence of two witnesses in some government office, or in the presence of whatever civil employee is marrying them off. This signing can take place before or after the Muslim ceremony. This "legal" certificate is signed at the same time by both parties.

It would be impossible to do electionals for Muslims if it is to be judged at the time that "vows" are taken, because no vows are taken, to the best of my recollection. It's only a matter of consent.

So what time would the electional be set for in these cases?

Thank you.

Hi Taurus7

I looked up the word "vow" in the dictionary to see what the definition is: "Vow: a solemn promise or statement: one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition <marriage>"

There are many marriage customs but at some point the couple are joined together by whoever is performing the ceremony which binds the couple in wedlock. The saying of "I now pronounce you man and wife or bride and groom" or however the pronouncement is made is the timing of the election.

From what I've read the most important thing in timing is to keep the Moon within the harmonious applying aspects to the significators of the marriage

MarG,
Thanks for your response.

I looked up the word "vow" in the dictionary to see what the definition is: "Vow: a solemn promise or statement: one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition <marriage>"

Therefore, if a couple wants to definitely get married at a certain time (by virtue of the election chart that the two laboriously poured over for months and months and finally got JUST the right time), and it is a very narrow window - and the official from the mosque got stuck in traffic and is late - could not the couple take their own "vows" at that time and believe that the marriage ceremony took place at that time?

There are many marriage customs but at some point the couple are joined together by whoever is performing the ceremony which binds the couple in wedlock. The saying of "I now pronounce you man and wife or bride and groom" or however the pronouncement is made is the timing of the election.

In that case, I think, it would be for the time that the bride gives her consent, because he goes to the groom first, but the two are married only at the time that the bride gives her 3rd consent. Do you agree?

Thanks.

Taurus7

When people get married there is always the preparation beforehand as to when everyone, including the clergy or whoever, are all present so that the ceremony can begin near to the timing of the pronouncement of man and wife.

Example: If marriage election timing is set for the pronouncement at 1:30pm, the couple can schedule the ceremony to start--the groom in place, the bride coming down the aisle, everyone present, perhaps 30 minutes before depending on how big or small the wedding, so that there is plenty of time to meet the election timing for the pronouncement. Of course, the main idea is to let the person officiating know the time of the pronouncement so they can proceed faster or slower as the case may be. As I said before, you don't want the Moon to move past a good aspect to the significators so, even if "man and wife," is said a little before the time everything is still in effect.

I really don't know how to answer you regarding a Muslum marriage as I have no knowledge of their customs. Can the couple say their 3 vows without an official present?

A couple I know had a wonderful marriage election chart done but it was for a real late time and a week day so the Asc was adjusted for Nevada (USA), people can get married there any time, day or night, which still worked out good, got married there then later had a wedding ceremony for family and friends which didn't matter for any timing since they were already married They are still happily married 20 years later.

Hi all,

I believe wedding charts are definitely important. But not all the rules are as mandatory as the historical texts admonish. Maybe they were at one time. The natal charts are also very important, for now I?d rather concentrate on the wedding election highlights. The main concept throughout the texts is the importance of Moon and Venus. The Sun also stands out in significance along with Jupiter.

If the goal is a happy long-term marriage then, at the least, we are looking for ongoing caring and cooperation, which is Moon and Venus territory. I apologize in advance if I overlook different values across cultures, I can only speak to the culture with which I am most familiar. Hopefully, others will share additional views.

Link for the astrologically scary wedding but happy 48 year marriage:

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?;bty ... r=4&nho2=1

Wedding chart data is: January 29, 1958; 1 pm; Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Ascendant 17Gemini

The rules in the texts are clear in fortifying both the Moon and Venus, adding never have Venus RX, combust or cadent. The following are some of this wedding chart's major mentions.

What is wrong with this chart, based on textbook rules
-Venus is RX
-Venus is combust
-Venus is cadent
-Venus is in Aquarius (considered bad for marriage sig?s)
-Venus square Nodes
-Moon in 12th house (bad house, cadent rule)
-Moon is past 19 Taurus (bad per rules)
-Saturn is conjunct Desc in 7th
-Mars is in 7th
-Mars is conjunct Saturn in 7th
-No aspect between L1 and L7
-Sun is in Aquarius (bad per rules)
-Asc is past 15 Gemini (especially bad if Asc)

What is right about this chart

-Moon has dignity by exaltation
-Moon?s next applying aspect is trine to Venus
-Moon trine its dispositor (Venus)
-Moon waxing trine Sun
-Venus is not peregrine
-Venus aspect with Jupiter (square)
-Sun aspect with Jupiter (square)

Highly debatable?
Is the Moon void of course?

The dignified Moon trine its dispositor Venus is what makes the aspect ?choice? ? beyond the dignity and trine the greater strength is this reception. There are more good things to see, however, those may be a close second string. Even though the 7th is considered afflicted by Mars conjunct Saturn, it is also benefited by Jupiter (their dispositor and L7) out of sign sextile Mars and Saturn ? even better, the sextile is a mutual reception for Mars and Jupiter, which can only happen out of sign. In addition, not only are Moon, Venus, Sun, Jupiter and Mercury unafflicted by malefics, they are not even aspected by malefics (except Jupiter friendly sextile Mars Saturn). There are more helpful details in minor dignities, receptions and house rulers, but I?ll stop here for simplicity.

It is most likely that the Moon and Venus carry the chart, especially with the additional Jupiter aspect and the Sun ? as a priority - even though Venus, and possibly the Moon, have other conditions which are considered strict ?never do?s? by the traditional rules.

Is the Moon void of course at 29Taurus35? I wish I knew. Over the years, the definition of void continues to evolve as more information is brought forth. Shortly after 9 am that morning (a few hours before the wedding) the Moon came within orb of its applying out of sign trine to Venus (7AquariusRX) before it left the orb of its last aspect (trine Mercury 18Capricorn). This might rule out void of course. If not, Lilly says that the Moon void in Taurus ?is not much impedited?. I will get back to this point in a minute.

Beyond the trad texts, some would say that, technically, the Moon?s next aspect is square Pluto near IC. If Pluto is viewed in its worst case form - a malefic afflicting ? the result has not harmed the marriage.

Seen through this lens does the chart begin to look better? Even look exceptionally good? The chart is of a celebrity couple. I didn?t mention it originally because I thought it would be more enjoyable to approach it without bias, just looking at the astrology.

The happy couple is Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward married nearly half a century. In Hollywood circles where divorce and bad break-up rates are exceedingly high, their stable marriage is legendary, well so are they. Years ago, when asked the reason for their successful marriage Joanne Woodward is quoted as saying, "One reason is he makes me laugh every day." Paul Newman thought about her comment and said, "At the time I wasn't sure whether I should be offended. But now I realize laughter and joy have been the glue in our relationship?.. A sense of humour might be the most important thing of all."

So there we have it: laughter and joy. Venus, Lady of Mirth and Moon, soul?s joy. It is definitely in the astrology texts however it is not spelled out plain as day the way Woodward and Newman say it. The sunny Sun and jovial Jupiter count, too, toward feeling the goodness of life together.

Known for more than their stage and film mega-stardom, they are models of corporate philanthropy and environmentalism. Newman donates 100% of his personal income after taxes from ?Newman?s Own? (his salad dressing and organic food products company) to charities, primarily for young people (drug re-habilitation, camps for those terminally ill, etc). To date, he has donated an astonishing sum - over 200 million dollars. He says his salad dressing out grosses his movies and it began as a lark thinking maybe selling his homemade recipes could raise a few thousand dollars a year for children?s charity. Newman?s Own website headline is ?Shameless exploitation in pursuit of the common good?.

Taurus Moon and food go hand in hand. Could it be a void Moon, ?not much impedited? ?. Their food products are sold in over a dozen countries and at McDonald?s mammoth international franchise. Here?s a thought ? at the rate Newman and Woodward are going it is conceivable that their food products could actually end up on the Moon as part of the astronaut?s food supply, freeze-dried. Then the measure of a Taurus void Moon ?not much impedited? might finally become clear.

Their birth charts are just as much fun as their wedding chart. Here is the data -

Paul Newman born January 26, 1925; Cleveland, Ohio USA; 6:30 am (verified)

Joanne Woodward born February 27, 1930; Thomasville, Georgia USA; 4:00 am (unverified ? does anyone have a Rodden rating or equivalent?)

Best,
Alex

Alex

In case you may have missed it, a ways down is a a post entitled, "The Void of course Moon," posted by Virgolass, a lot of very informative infromation from Deb, Sue and others has been posted

I enjoyed your breakdown of Newman and Woodwards marriage chart, goes to show that sometimes the time people themselves pick to get married the planets seem aligned just right for them. I haven't checked but perhaps the marriage chart is harmonious to their natal charts!?

It is most likely that the Moon and Venus carry the chart, especially with the additional Jupiter aspect and the Sun ? as a priority - even though Venus, and possibly the Moon, have other conditions which are considered strict ?never do?s? by the traditional rules.

What importance would you give to the strength of Venus?

I ask this question because a couple has found an electional chart which looks great from many perspectives:
November 27, 2007, 1:03 pm, Hackensack NJ
The Moon is strong in Cancer, Venus is in Libra and Jupiter is in Sagittarius. Venus in the 7th and Jupiter angular in the 10th. All malefics are in the cadent houses except Pluto, but Pluto conjunct Jupiter conjunct Midheaven could possibly indicate expansion, instead of debility in this particular case. I don't have the chart before me, but I belive Venus sextiles Jupiter and the Moon squares Venus and then goes on to trine Mercury. If you take it one step further, the sabian symbols at the angles and the degree of the major planets are also very nice and symbolic of a happy union.
The problem is November is too far into the future, and they can't get married before June/July time frame.
I think they could find a strong Moon, and a strong ruler of 1st and 7th, and so on, and push the date back into the Summer, but Venus would be debilitated. While Venus in Virgo is in its triplicity, it is also in its fall. Does it make sense to delay the marriage so far just on account of Venus?
Thanks.

MarG ? Thank you, I?m glad you enjoyed it.

Yes, I have been following the Void of course Moon thread all along and am very much looking forward to Deb?s article. I fact, I meant to reference Deb?s input on that thread in my VOC comments on the Newman-Woodward wedding chart.

Deb, please accept my big time apologies.

Based on my prior understanding of VOC, the Moon in this chart is not void because it is within orb of its applying aspect to Venus out-of-sign. It was only because of Deb?s valuable insights on the orb of the Moon?s last separating aspect (see Void of course Moon thread) that I checked to be sure that the Taurus Moon had not been void prior to its application to Venus (it had not been void) when I said,

Shortly after 9 am that morning (a few hours before the wedding) the Moon came within orb of its applying out of sign trine to Venus (7AquariusRX) before it left the orb of its last aspect (trine Mercury 18Capricorn). This might rule out void of course.

Deb?s research on VOC is excellent and the best explanation that I have ever heard, especially regards the last separating aspect. It makes perfect sense. In my case, I need to be sure that my understanding is correct therefore I described the wedding chart Moon both ways (if void, then "not much impedited") - again, I look forward to Deb?s article.

Taurus7 writes

What importance would you give to the strength of Venus?

Do you mean strength by essential dignity only or inclusive of accidental dignity?

Best,
Alex