Yes you're right, Deb, re-reading Pete's response I see he didn't imply the aspect was irrelevant at all. Apologies for misunderstanding, Pete and thanks to both of you for your help in clarifying my understanding.

No problem Alanna, and you're welcome.

Pete

Hi Pete,

There are special astrological meanings for the words frustration and prohibition apart from the meanings you listed. The Oxford English Dictionary has a category for prohibition but not frustration even though they have used Lilly?s Christian Astrology and Wilson?s Dictionary as sources.

The OED says that prohibition (listed as number 5 of 6 categories) is, ??in Astronomy it is, when two planets are applying to Conjunction, or Aspect, and before they come to joyn themselves, another comes to conjunction, or Aspect to the planet applied to?. The source is given as 1658 Phillips, The new world of English words; or, a general dictionary.

By using the normal meanings of the words frustration and prohibition it looks like there is no difference between them, but the astrological meanings show that they are completely different.

You originally gave Mars as significator of the querent and Venus as significator of the rival. Therefore Venus is desirous of perfecting a conjunction with Mars and not with the Sun, because here the Sun is not a significator, it is an outsider. The Sun interferes with the Venus/Mars perfection by perfecting the conjunction with Mars before Venus can reach Mars; this is prohibition. This shows that some person or event of the nature of the Sun will prevent the querent and quesited coming together for whatever purpose. This person or force is outside of the control of Venus and Mars, there is nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault.

Hope this helps.

Maurice.

Hi Deb,

Initially I felt you were putting too much of a positive spin on the combust state of Mars (by looking ahead to when it later experiences cazimi and then enters its own sign). I personally wouldn?t allow any recognition of the cazimi state, because Mars isn?t in that condition now and the fact that it will be later is part and parcel of being combust.

Oh believe me, I was only too aware of the positive spin I was putting on Mars by looking ahead to its cazimi state, but you know, this is a question that I've often pondered over. The whole combustion process - from the moment that the planet enters or is brought into combustion - follows a well observed path: the planet starts to 'burn' and eventually loses all power to act, being completely overpowered by the Sun's energy. At the same time it becomes less and less visible. Then at the point where it is just 17' of arc from the centre of the Sun's disc a very brief but remarkable transformation takes place: it enters cazimi and now gains maximum strength and protection as it sits in the Sun's heart: Cor Solis. In this condition it is my belief that nothing can touch it. It is as if an alchemical change has taken place and the planet is imbued with the Sun's vitality and potency. It enjoys this condition until either the Sun or itself moves on a further 17' of arc whereupon it becomes more and more visible and independent.
The question that burns at me (pun intended) is this: is it correct to say that the quality of the planet when separating from cazimi and re-entering combustion is exactly the same as it was when leaving combustion and entering cazimi? If the accepted answer to this is yes then to me it makes no sense, because as you rightly state Deb, this is a process and I believe this is a process in which the planet is undergoing a massive transformation. Initially there is a sense of weakness and disempowerment as it approaches the Sun's disc. Then suddenly, at the point when it enters the Sun's heart it burns as brightly as the Sun and becomes invested with Solar potency. Now I believe it is possible that some of that potency remains with it and continues to invest it in decreasing levels of magnitude until combustion - and eventually under sunbeams - ends, otherwise what is the purpose of the process?
Yes, there may well be a feeling of being overpowered by the Sun during the applying phase - a sense of fear and trembling - but the Sun's purpose, I believe, is to offer alchemical transformation and not to dominate and overpower. If I'm onto something here then the separating phase of the process will feel completely different as the planet now stands temporarily empowered from its contact with the Sun's heart. There may well be a certain amount of discomfort as it regains its sense of identity and starts to "cool" but it now understands something about itself that was missing before cazimi.
I realise that I could be way off base here and that what I'm suggesting flies in the face of all the accepted wisdom that has been handed down by the tradition, but we all accept that when interpreting a horary we're not just looking at a static set of conditions but a story that has a beginning, a continuation, and a perfection.
It's in light of the above thinking that I placed such a positive spin on my friend's significator, and not just because it was about to enter Scorpio and gain several points of dignity. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear at the time but I was still trying to coalesce my thoughts on the whole combustion process.

Now I'm ready for the cries of "burn the heretic!"

I do agree that there is a promise of better days for Mars rather than Venus with this change of sign, but will it come in time to help this present situation, given that Mars is also very weak in the 12th house? Ordinarily I wouldn?t think so, but we have that support from the Moon so that probably would have budged me to the same position you?ve taken: to hang on if she can. There seems to be some financial benefit for her in the application of the Moon to the conjunction of Mercury (job) and Jupiter (2nd-ruler) in the first.

I'm in complete agreement, yes. As for the 12th house condition, I'm not entirely sure but I believe my friend teaches young offenders, or something along those lines, and this would be well represented by her significator being placed in the 12th.

cheers...
Pete

Now I'm ready for the cries of "burn the heretic!"

Oh dear ? what a friendly reputation we have here !

I don?t think that?s way off ?the accepted wisdom? at all. I see cazimi as a little like the magical moment of conception. A creative act takes place, but the consequence doesn?t yet have strength of manifestation, so a period of vulnerability remains. Lilly states that applying combustion is more of an affliction than separating combustion, but I think that Bonatus (in his 5th consideration) gives a clearer explanation:

the impediment is greater when she is going to the Sun than when she is going from him; because as she goes off, when she is got five degrees distant, she is said to be escaped, though not wholly freed. As when a fever hath left a man, he is said to be recovered, although he be weak and faint, because he is secure now that he shall obtain his health again.

So we have this ?return to strength? implicit in the process, but because the planet is still weak in its own expression, a need for concern remains because there is less resistance to other hostile effects. I think this is what you are saying and that it tallies with how Bonatus described it, like recovering from a debilitating illness ? there is that sense of the crisis point having been passed, but while the patient is still weak and low in their own vitality, even something like a minor infection might be able to cause serious problems and finish them off. (I?ve often found people signified by separating combustion to be suffering from grief or a sense of separation because of something that has recently changed BTW).

But although we are looking at a process that we expect to be part of a cycle, I do think that most of the situations we ask about have limits of relevance, and so we have to ?freeze frame? the symbolism accordingly. Let?s say, for example, that a planet is close to combustion but not yet cazimi ? there is some kind of ?shedding? taking place and ultimately that might lead to a whole new cycle of experience that is far more creative in the long run. But if the question being asked is ?will I be able to hold my position?? during this applying combustion period, then that has to raise some doubt about their ability to remain in the current situation when the symbolism is showing a major period of change, don?t you think? For example I did a chart with this kind of symbolism where someone asked about the possibility of avoiding bankruptcy, and he did become bankrupt, but when he finally became officially declared bankrupt it came with a huge sense of relief because it put him back in touch with the reality of his position and the only hope he had to let go of was the kind of false hope that brings anxiety and fear. So in the long term it was a positive thing, (when viewed as part of a life-cycle), but within the scope of the horary question being asked at that time the symbolism was more constrained towards being ominous.

Just my thoughts ? and of course combustion is only one element to consider. I think we?ll all be interested in learning how things turn out for your querent because she has this interesting combination of a heavily afflicted significator, and yet the Moon?s movement is positive. Good luck with this.

Hi Maurice,

The OED says that prohibition (listed as number 5 of 6 categories) is, ??in Astronomy it is, when two planets are applying to Conjunction, or Aspect, and before they come to joyn themselves, another comes to conjunction, or Aspect to the planet applied to?. The source is given as 1658 Phillips, The new world of English words; or, a general dictionary.

You originally gave Mars as significator of the querent and Venus as significator of the rival. Therefore Venus is desirous of perfecting a conjunction with Mars and not with the Sun, because here the Sun is not a significator, it is an outsider. The Sun interferes with the Venus/Mars perfection by perfecting the conjunction with Mars before Venus can reach Mars; this is prohibition. This shows that some person or event of the nature of the Sun will prevent the querent and quesited coming together for whatever purpose. This person or force is outside of the control of Venus and Mars, there is nothing they can do about it and it is not their fault.

Yes I see now where I misunderstood Lilly's meaning of prohibition on p.110 of 'C.A'., where he states:

"When two planets that signify the effecting or bringing to conclusion any thing demanded are applying to an aspect; and before they can come to a true aspect, another body interposeth either his body or aspect, so that thereby the matter propounded is hindered and retarded, this is called Prohibition."

He was refering to two significators when he said "...when two planets that signify the effecting or bringing to conclusion any thing demanded..."
This should have been obvious to me but it wasn't and your explanation has clarified this for me, thank you.
In this context the Sun represents a third party (probably male) who reaches the querent before the lord 7th does. My friend recently sent me an update e-mail which might explain how that has worked out in reality, although not in every detail. I'll post a slightly abridged version of it below.
Thanks again Maurice,

Pete

I just wanted to share an update on my friend's situation. She sent me an e-mail the other day and I'm reproducing the relevant parts of it here. The situation as she describes it doesn't fit *exactly* with the interplanetary dance shown in the horary but there are elements of prohibition and combustion that are recogniseable in what she describes.
Here's what she had to say. I've added my comments in bold type:

....The guy I told you about, the one who I was told was causing the trouble, and the one who has been sticking to this woman like glue (because as I said in my earlier post - he likes her but also because of the authority she has) [ combustion?] has been on holiday this week.
There's four of us work in the team together myself, these two and another guy who I'll call Tom. He's Sagittarius - Jupiter influence?

Well Tom, after initially staying neutral, decided to tell this woman some home truths about the other guy and about how he is nasty to almost everybody (almost nobody in the company likes him). I've said earlier that I thought she liked him alot and it's turned out I was right about this - I'll mention it again later.

Because he wasn't around this week, she has been much better and it's enabled bridges to be built. [Sun entered Scorpio and Venus free of combustion]I think she's been listening to Tom and standing back from the situation and seeing things a little more clearly and now things are on a much better footing. Whatever the other guy has said about me, I think she has made her own mind up about the situation. [Venus enters Scorpio and is received into querent's dignity]

However, she has told me this week that she does like him - but 'only as a friend'. I believe it's more than this - you can see it in the way she looks at him and also he ultimately doesn't treat her any better than he treats any of us but she still likes him. What kind of a friend is he then? I think she's blinded to his faults (he's a little more charming and sycophantic with her) [combustion with Venus in Libra?]hence my belief that emotionally, it may be more than friendship to her.
If this is the case, could Venus then signify Him as my open rival (and someone she maybe more than
'likes') and especially in the light of what I've discussed above with perhaps her as the authority Sun figure? You talked about:

'the desire of Venus (Him?) to perfect her conjunction with the Sun (her, authority figure?) prevented, thwarted by the Sun's conjunction to Mars'(me,). This could be about what's happened this week whilst he has not been around. I could be completely wrong about all of this Pete as I don't know if a male can be represented by Venus etc but it does seem to tally?
Her actually telling me that she does like him put me a little on my guard again as I do believe that this will ultimately determine things even though I am in a much stronger position (the cazimi sun thing eh Pete, hey I'm learning!) [actually I believe this is more to do with Mars entering dignity] and I was taken here by what Deb said,

'a period of vulnerability remains'. She said something about being 'not wholly freed' but at least I am on my guard and aware and I do feel very much stronger. I have found this really interesting and have found that I could understand much of what has been discussed, may even inspire me to study horary?
We'll see! I think the success of a reading lies in the interpretive skills of the astrologer and I'd be concerned that I may not get it right.

I'd be very interested to see what you think of my interpretation above and if it could be valid Pete and I'm really glad that you got something out of it too.
I'll look to - I think you said the end of November, to see what happens - there has been talk of 're-structuring' in the department so who knows eh?

So that's where things stand at the moment. I think this situation has been - and still is - a fascinating example of the triple conjunction/combustion/prohibition set-up that has been current in the skies and I want to thank all of you for your contributions.
If anyone has anything further to add in light of the above update then feel free to speak up

cheers...
Pete

Hi Pete,
Glad to have been of help.

Maurice.