This is a great idea: using the "is the rumor true" technique. I've only used it a few times myself and it can quite useful.

But I'm not sure if my (female) friend's pure speculation about my attorney's sexual orientation counts as a rumor: after all, she didn't hear it from anyone, which technically counts as a rumor in my book: but, still the idea has merit.

So far, though it looks from all accounts by Skyscript's intrepid followers as if he is gay. Rats! (Well, at least as far as we heterosexual women are concerned.)

V-girl.

So regardless of whether this man wants you to know or not, you have determined he is gay. Just because it might be possible to make this determination through horary does not mean that we should. The original desire was to know whether you have a chance of having a relationship with this man or not. That is all you need to know. You do not need to determine his sexuality. His being heterosexual would not necessarily give you a better chance at having a relationship with him. He might already have a partner, either male or female.

Moondance7 said:

As for someone's sexuality being a "secret" that is inappropriate for horary, I find that specious. Afterall, we talk about whether someone is a thief, an arsonist, etc., so why should we be so uptight about sexual preference, which should be a happy thing? The other things are felonies, after all.

This is an entirely different matter from one's private life. You are likening someone's sexuality to a felony. If you commit a felony then you lose the right to that privacy and it is valid to try to determine who commited the crime in the same way the police try to determine a crime. However, they have no right to breech a private citizen's confidentiality. And it has nothing to do with being uptight about sexuality. It is not about 'secrecy'. Everyone has a right to their privacy. I can see that there might be times where this could be a valid question, e.g. if you were already dating him but suspect him of seeing men secretly. This would involve you directly. However, this is a breech of this man's confidentiality. This is a business relationship that does not include an automatic right to determine private information about this man. It is not much different from accessing someone's confidential files in a workplace or some such place. Most of us would not like this done to us so why would we do it to others? Whether we see the practice of horary as spiritual or not it comes with a certain responsibility to act with integrity.

Sue raises a good point about the ethics of horary. I posted my comments on the assumption that this man's identity would not be made public and that the comments on this forum were for learning and discussion purposes and would not be used in an way unethically. My sense from the discussion so far is that we have been engaged in an academic discussion that will not go beyond these pages. I think it would be unethical so someone to say, "my astrologer thinks Mr. X is gay" because we have no idea how that comment might impact his life. In addition, no technique in astrology is infallible and we often go by the preponderance of testimonies.

That said, I was troubled by the Saturn square Jupiter in this horary because Saturn rules the 7th and thus the astrologer. Jupiter disposes the ASC-ruler Moon and also rules the ASC by exaltation. This Saturn/Jupiter square raises the possibility of some type of negative outcome as a result of the interaction between the querent (Jupiter) and the astrologer (Saturn). Maybe the rumor is false and a romantic partnership is possible, so that the astrologer has unintentionally misled the querent. Then again, Saturn ruling the 7th could represent a committed partnership with this lawyer, which the square to Jupiter, for whatever reason, will deny.

forget the ethics of astrology...ethics of the legal profession say "HANDS OFF!". If this guy cares about his bar license at all there's no way he's going to date you.

Sue, you have entirely missed the point- I was not likening his sexuality to a felony- I was doing exactly the opposite. You should reread what I wrote. Horarists feel free to indicate whether or not somebody has stolen money, set a fire,etc., but you are loathe to speculate on sexuality. This is not integrity, this is cultural bias, IMO. Of course, ALL such astrological speculation must be private and anonymous. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and dangerous. It has nothing to do with spirituality, but may have everything to do with unquestioning "spiritual" convictions being easily misapplied. You are someone whose wonderful knowledge of astrology I revere, but in the area of integrity, I reserve my own judgement, as we all must.

One of the points being missed in saying that asking if someone is gay is no different from asking if someone is a thief, is that the thief question is only asked when it is relevant. For example, if we have been robbed, we might ask ?who was the thief?? or if we are taking on an employee we might ask ?is this person honest and trustworthy?? Similarly, if we are starting to think that a relationship is developing, but we?ve been told that the ?other? is gay, then it seems legitimate to ask about that. I don?t think anyone is arguing against that.

But the way this question was presented didn?t demonstrate (or at least didn?t seem to demonstrate very well) the need for the querent to know, making it seem like a question of idle curiosity. This is probably down to the fact that the querent didn?t express herself well on that point, because just a little rephrasing of the question would have avoided this controversy altogether. For example, I don?t think anyone would have raised an eyebrow if the question had been ?Is this man attracted to me as I hope he is, or is he gay and never likely to be interested?? That question shows the querent has a personal commitment and concern in the matter being asked about. And on that level I would expect the answer to be present in the symbolism - even though I don?t believe that issues such as sexuality or race can be reliably discerned from natal charts. We can?t determine gender from natal charts either, but we still aim to determine gender in horary charts if it is relevant and the question is sincere.

But if there is no personal need to know, then I think it is right to question whether such a horary is appropriate to post on a horary forum with a request for feedback from other astrologers. Most astrologers have a sense of being informed by teachings that have been so strenuously emphasised by tradition that they form a sort of creed of conduct that is likely to develop good practice. The initial feedback didn?t say ?you may not ask this? but it revealed a certain discomfort with the ethics of attempting to use horary to discover something that potentially may be an unjustified invasion of someone else?s privacy. Every astrologer is responsible for understanding their own sense of integrity and acting within it - absolutely; but it will naturally attract concern if the question is potentially controversial in its ethics and then posted for comment on a public forum.

To re-emphasise, I am definitely not saying that has happened here, merely pointing out that the emphasis has shifted from the initial question onto what we can or can?t do with horary. I have to say that no one will ever tell me what I can or can?t do with horary, but if I were asking for feedback from other astrologers then (in order to avoid putting other astrologers into a moral dilemma) I would assume that my question ought to be seen as obviously ethical, or I?d take the trouble to explain why it is legitimate in my eyes, or I wouldn?t be surprised if the responses I got focused on the radicality of the question rather than the way to answer the question.

Sue, I understand your concern re: this man's privacy as to his sexual orientation -- and you're right; if the question is "is a romantic relationship possible," then the answer could be no even if he's not gay.

I suppose it might have been different had I already been involved romantically with him and suspected that he was gay and was using me as a "cover" if you will. In that case, I'd think I'd have the right to know if I'm being deceived. (I know a few straight women who had the heartbreak of marrying men they did not know at the time were gay...)

Neverthless, as Anthony Lewis said, there has been no breach of his identity, and his secret, if he has one, is still safe.

[quote="TonyLouis"]That said, I was troubled by the Saturn square Jupiter in this horary because Saturn rules the 7th and thus the astrologer. "

I had always thought that the first house rules an astrologer doing her own horary chart, so I am the querent. In this case, that would mean the Moon in Sagittarius rules me and Saturn in Leo would rule him as my attorney.

"Jupiter disposes the ASC-ruler Moon and also rules the ASC by exaltation. This Saturn/Jupiter square raises the possibility of some type of negative outcome as a result of the interaction between the querent (Jupiter) and the astrologer (Saturn)."

But wouldn't I use the relationship between the Moon and Saturn, our significators? Why would I use the dispositor of the Moon unless I also used the dispositor of Saturn? In that case, the relationship between those two dispositors would be between Jupiter (Moon in Sag's dispositor) and the Sun (Saturn in Leo's dispositor). Is this right?

Hi Voyagergirl,

I did not mean to imply that you were purposely acting unethically by asking the question. I understand that it was not your intention to do so. I was just raising the issue, which has been raised before on this site, of what is appropriate and what isn?t in our horaries and whether we can ever be sure.

I completely agree that there are times when the question ?Is he gay?? would be a perfectly valid question to ask. Each case has to be taken on its merit. The debate continues on whether it is appropriate for an astrologer to ask questions about death. Again, each has to be taken on its merit. It is very legitimate for someone who is aware of their impending death to ask how much time they might have in order to plan. However, it is quite another matter for someone to ask about someone else?s impending death for the purposes of personal gain. As far as I am concerned, a question asking when your lover?s ill wife will die so that he can come and live with you is not appropriate. I am sure that plenty of astrologers might disagree with me but I could not answer a question like that.

I always find that one of the best guides to the appropriateness of the question is how clearly you can place yourself in the chart. If there is a lot of confusion about significators and how you, as the querent, relate to them then the question is either confused or not appropriate. Of course, it will not always be the case that you will be placed clearly in the chart and I agree with Tony that, theoretically at least, the best way to answer the original ?Is he gay?? question is by using Lilly?s ?Is the Rumour True? technique.

I also agree with Deb that no one can make the decision for another astrologer on what is appropriate and what isn?t. But I think that it is important for us to have these discussions on a practical and philosophical level. I believe you can only be guided by your own sense of personal integrity. If we genuinely feel comfortable about asking the question then it is probably okay. But if there is doubt then perhaps the question is inappropriate. This ties in very closely with the thread that Deb has raised (which I will get to as soon as I have time) about the ?spirituality?, or lack thereof, in horary.

I always find that one of the best guides to the appropriateness of the question is how clearly you can place yourself in the chart. If there is a lot of confusion about significators and how you, as the querent, relate to them then the question is either confused or not appropriate.

I think Sue hits the nail here in that I think the attorney's role is muddled here, especially if we give the 7th house to him. The 7th house would indicate someone we meet at a party or similar place, where people meet as equals, free to develope their relationship however they like. Obviously the real question is "do I have any chances with him?".

But as Virgoglass pointed out, now "him" is someone whom Voyagegirl has paid for doing something for her, so I would see him in the 6th house of servants, not in the 7th house of equal partners. So, the question is: "I've hired someone to do a job for me, but I'm attracted to him too, so will I have a romance with him?" In a way, this is about a potential relationship between a boss and an employee, and that contains automatically some inherent power issues. I would think this is maybe the most ethically problematic part here.

Virgolass wrote:forget the ethics of astrology...ethics of the legal profession say "HANDS OFF!". If this guy cares about his bar license at all there's no way he's going to date you.

That's correct: I would not expect him to date a client because that is a violation of his legal ethics. Because of that, I've been careful to maintain a very professional relationship with him and so has he with me. (He's also in another state, so it's not like I can see him often either.)

My legal involvement with him is limited to his helping me regarding some paperwork that I am submitting pro-se over the next few months.

But I guess the person (maybe Deb?) who stated that my question seemed more like idle speculation was spot-on.

Sue wrote:Hi Voyagergirl, I think that it is important for us to have these discussions on a practical and philosophical level. I believe you can only be guided by your own sense of personal integrity. If we genuinely feel comfortable about asking the question then it is probably okay.

Sue, thank you, I agree with your observations on this, as well as Deb's.

Voyagergirl