For Sungem,

Well, I?ve had my say about this whole business about not using the 7th house this way. I?m done. For this topic at least.

Everyone,

I believe the thief?s significator must always be the 7th from whichever house we assign to X.

Lilly?s writing on how to find what planet to assign to the thief are not so simple.

? the 7th house is the Significator of the Thiefe, if there be no Peregrine Planet in an angle or 2nd house.

?if you find in the ascendant a Planet peregrine, put him as the Significator of the Thiefe, and especially if he be Lord of the 7th house; but if no Planet be in the Ascendant, look if there be any in the other angles, and give him to be Signifies of the Thief.

I rather and more assuredly prefer the Lord of the 7th, as more rational and consentanious to reason.
The Lord of the 7th commonly signifies the Thief, but especially if he be peregrine in the ascendant, or in any other angle; but if he be not so, then behold if any other Planet be peregrine in any of the angles, call him the Thief; if none be peregrine in any of the angles, take the Lord of the Hour, and call him the Thief, and if it happen that the Lord of the Hour be Lord of the 7th, then it is more radicall; if the Lord of the 7th be in the ascendant, the Querent is Thief; this will hold where just suspition is made of the Querent?s fidelity, or most cause above all others, whose complexion and condition is according to the Planet, Lord of the 7th, and Signe thereof.

?the 7th house and his Lord, and the peregrine Planet in an angle, and the Lord of the hour, signifieth the Thief, or party that took away the Goods.

Having said that, I am pretty much ready to give up with this chart. I?ve done these same kinds of questions myself, where I ask the question for someone else, and have not had much luck with them. OK, I can?t let it go. One more trip around the mulberry bush.

My rationale for using Saturn as the thief was that it was a peregrine planet that is in the house opposite to the querent, who is the radical 11th. But as I carefully read Lilly, his emphasis is not so much on the planet being opposite to the querent but to its angularity, and Saturn sure isn?t angular here. But Lilly perhaps wisely doesn?t talk about turned charts here.

When we?re stuck like this, one way to proceed is to see what planets have had recent contact with the significator of the goods, which in this case seems to be Jupiter. (But maybe not, as we have three possible candidates for where to put the guy who was robbed) Jupiter can be the natural significator for goods, so that?s confirmed a bit. There are three planets that are separating from Jupiter ? Saturn, Mercury and the Moon. I?d strike the Moon out as the thief mainly because a thief?s significator would be peregrine and the Moon is well dignified. Of those other two, I?d now strongly lean towards Mercury, as it?s peregrine, in the 7th house and is the natural significator of thieves. In Saturn?s favor is that it?s located opposite to the querent and is in a square with Jupiter. Lilly talks quite a bit about squares showing theft, while trines and sextiles as showing that the goods were not stolen but mislaid.

If your main question is to know who the thief is, you could use Lilly?s guidelines for what a badly dignified Saturnine or Mercurial person looks like.

Mercury is combust and is very close to Venus in detriment.

?the Lord of the 7th joyned to a Fortune, he shall not be taken, unlesse that Fortune be under the Sun Beames, or impedited; if he goe to combustion, it signifies his death.

Wow! Even though Mercury is not the 7th house ruler, we could say Lilly meant whatever planet signifies the thief. OK, so maybe the thief has died, but another more likely possibility is that the thief is in prison, as combustion can indicate that.

And Dolly, perhaps this confusion over what planet to use to signify your friend could be helped if you see what planet most closely resembles your friend and tenant? You?ve got three choices, Saturn, Mercury or Mars. Both Saturn and Mercury are in rough shape so you?d expect to see him as:

Saturn ? a really old and perhaps sickly person, or a very dark, depressive, jealous and overall nasty person, or some sort of oafish country bumpkin.

Mercury ? a compulsive liar, and gossip monger.

But Mars is strong in his own sign
Mars ? a young virile stud, a soldier or a cop. If this is him, give him my e-mail, I?d like to meet him.

Mark

Fair enough! I admire your perseverance in going 'one more time around the mulberry bush' with this, but I think it's become so muddled with the added information that I'm going to put it in the private study basket until another day since I'm on my way out.

Dolly

I hope you'll let us know what, if anything, eventuates.

Thank you everyone for your time and effort
When and if anything else comes to light concerning this break in I will keep you posted.

Dolly

"But Mars is strong in his own sign
Mars ? a young virile stud, a soldier or a cop. If this is him, give him my e-mail, I?d like to meet him."

LOL, Mark! You and me both!

Yes, I've had enough of the compulsive liar. I've seen living proof of what Lilly said about

...the worst manners are from the Infortunes, when joined to one another, or with Mercury in the 7th, 8th or 9th houses. CA, Book III, pg. 543

This guy had Saturn conjunct Mercury, only 11' apart, in Taurus, 7th house, both peregrine. Fixed signs = constant lies. 7th house = lies to the spouse, boyfriend/girlfriend.

This is why I love Lilly so much. He throws out little gems like that all the time. First I wondered why he says you get this when in the 7th, 8th or 9th houses. Why not when in the really bad 12th house. Then it dawns on me. If you have this in the 12th house, nobody sees it, it's hidden. If it's in the 9th house you have someone with bad religion, or bad morals. What would you get with the in infortunes joined to each other or to Mercury in the 8th house? A really depressed, anxiety filled person? Maybe you'd get a person who is the living embodiment of death itself. Sort of like Max von Sydow in that old movie. Notice that he doesn't say you get a great person with this in some other house too. Just that the worst are when in it's in 7, 8 or 9.

Hi All
So are we looking for a young Aries/Scorpio type then. What else can we ascertain - is he local - where does he live - in what direction?
Can we even tell this?
Dolly

No, I'm afraid that we're not that far along. We're still trying to figure out which planet might be the significator of your friend and tenant, the person who was robbed. Does he most resemble Saturn, Mercury or Mars?

Hi Mark

The only thing I really know about my tenant is that he is a Gemini with a Taurus Moon (I don't know what his ascendant is). So I guess Mercury probably wins.

Dolly

How a person is represented in a horary chart doesn't seem to have much resemblance to their natal chart. If you did many horary charts about your tenant you wouldn?t expect all of them to have him as Mercury. What I?m asking is which of the three possibilities most clearly reminds of him? It doesn?t have to be an exact fit, and it doesn?t have to be a match for how he is all the time, just how he is in this situation, how he?s acting during this incident. Read Lilly?s descriptions of what kinds of people are represented by Saturn, Mars and Mercury, but remember that Saturn and Mercury are debilitated.

I don?t think we?re going to get much about the situation from this chart because as I?ve said, you asked the question and not him. The best charts that I?ve seen come when there is a lot of emotion in the situation. You may be upset about it too, but not as much as he is. You have the basic answer ? that he?s not going to get his stuff back. Everyone agrees on that, as shown by the Moon that?s about ready to switch signs.

Hi Mark

I would say that he was acting more Saturnish - he was obviously very fed up - gutted in fact. He wasn't acting in a Martian way shouting or aggresive towards the perpertrators he was more subdued and not that talkative!

Dolly