Steven,

A very good analysis there. You must be using a different set of Term rulers than Ptolemy's that I use in SolarFire. I get the MC of 16? Capricorn 37? as being in the Terms of Jupiter. What system do you use?

So if your positive outcome hinges on the Moon?s being conjunct with Jupiter, what does that say about the nature of what?s he?s going to get? Jupiter is the natural significator of wealth and rules the 8th and 12th houses here. It also is the natural significator of travel, but it?s positioned in the 7th house, as is the Moon. Though there is some connection to work overseas here, it could just as easily mean that instead of the desired job abroad, that the querent finds lucrative work where he is from business relationships. That would be based on Jupiter being money from clients as the ruler of the 8th positioned in the 7th.

I also wouldn?t write off Saturn?s obstructive role here as just indicating a simple delay of things happening. That could easily signify some major unpleasant obstacle or setbacks.

Steven,

I have two thoughts here. What do you think of the idea that since it is the Sun that welcomes Saturn into his house, that this signifies that Saturn is free to do whatever he wants, and that is always negative when he's so debilitated? A few months ago there was a lengthy discussion here about receptions involving malefics, and Deb and Ben Dykes contributed quite a bit on this, especially Ben whose source is Bonatti?s Liber Astronomiae which Ben has translated. Ben cited several examples from Bonatti where he says that it?s worse when a planet receives a malefic like Saturn and somewhat better if the malefic receives the other planet. Ben made the analogy of a scene from a movie where Saladin invited two prisoners into his tent and offered one of them to have a drink, while not offering a drink to the other. But both took a drink. The one who was invited to drink was given wine, while the one who was not invited (received) drank poison. Bonatti?s examples involved questions of illness where the ASC lord is received by the lord of the 8th and the patient lives, while when the ASC lord receives the lord of the 8th the patient dies. In this current chart, the Sun receives Saturn into his house, so that looks to me as if the Sun is damaged by this, or at least nothing positive comes of it. Since Saturn has been in bad shape for the last few years, I?ve seen this situation come up in a lot of charts and the outcome has been that nothing positive comes out of it, even if the querent?s significator is in the house of the quesited, or if Saturn is in the sign or in the house of the querent. I?ve read countless times what Lilly says about aspects involving malefics, debilitated or otherwise, and he makes the same distinction, adding that you also have to pay attention to the condition of the planet that is involved with the malefic. In Peter?s chart we have the Sun in fair shape with dignity by triplicity but not being received by Saturn, the opposite of what both Bonatti and Lilly say is the preferable way. I?ve always noticed too that Lilly does not ever say that if your chart meets his conditions that you?ll get perfection, just that if you don?t meet them you won?t. That?s a big difference. If I had to bet, I?d bet with the negative strength of Saturn in detriment, peregrine and retrograde.

Also I tend to look at whether two planets are naturally friends or not and between the Sun and Saturn we have a one-sided friendship where Saturn is friends with the Sun while the Sun is not friends with Saturn.

The other point is something that Deb has made on several occasions relative to which house system a person uses, or in this case what system of terms a person uses. She?s said that the answers will come to us using the tools that we use, so in some sense, within reason of course, these differences of house systems or which Terms we use are not very important. I might not be expressing her ideas as clearly as she would but my point is that since this is Peter?s chart and since he?s using Ptolemy?s terms, that kind of makes a difference on how strong the sway that Venus has over the mid-heaven. With just dignity by term it does not match the standard of reception which is as you said, dignity by sign or exaltation, or triplicity and one of the two minor dignities. I really am just bringing this point up to discuss; I?m not sure about this either way.

steven, everytime you "babble" I have to study your babbling for months...

Steven,

I feel a little odd speaking for Ben Dykes like I did above here. I'm glad you looked up his original comments. I've spoken to Ben more recently and he's still sorting through how Bonatti uses reception prior to publishing his book.

I'll be my usual contrarian and say that I still don't think any amount of reception, generosity or whatever can get over Saturn in detriment, peregrine and retrograde in Peter's chart here, which as usual is lost in the shuffle. Peter? Any thoughts?

I really don't know what to say about that quote you cited that says that anytime you get two planets that are significators in an applying aspect that you get perfection. Whatever you do, don't tell this to all the love-lorn querents out there because I have enough trouble explaining why their opposition between Mars and Saturn does not bode well for eternal love. All I can say is that there must be more to that quote than meets the eye.

What is an open question to me is when you have Saturn in the shape it's in now is whether it can promise nothing at all, or just nothing good? I had one of my own charts where I asked a friend for the name of a doctor who I wanted to see. My friend was Saturn in Leo in the ASC. The Moon seemed to join my friend to the doctor to me. What happened was that he tried quite hard to find the doctor but he had moved and could not be found. I've seen other times when Saturn showed a reconcilliation that does not last.

About Lilly's example of the lost horse, that's one of my favorite ones. Lilly seems to make an exception that when the Sun is one of the significators and it is in aspect with another significator then the combustion does not interfere with the outcome. And this makes sense. When he talks about the fate of someone who?s been gone away at sea for a long time and their significator is combust, he says that the person is in prison or captured. In the example of the horse, the horse is captured but this time it?s by the querent, which is a good thing; it?s what he wants. It?s not that the combustion isn?t happening, it?s just that it does not impede the outcome. Combustion shows lack of freedom and capture, which for the horse is just what he wants. There are at least two other examples where Lilly shows significators in combustion where he still gets perfection. One of his most famous is whether he will buy the house from Master B. In that one the seller of the house is the Sun while Lilly is Venus, which is combust. He does say that the combustion does show that Master B has too much power and so forced Lilly to accept a price that was too high, but Lilly still gets the house. Lilly gives another example in Chapter LIX where the querent is the Sun about whether a pushy young woman will marry and older man who she first rebuffed. This is a great example of reception helping the significator where her application to the quesited will not bring about perfection. But the Solar woman does not impede her contact with Jupiter who is the person will help her marry the older man.

It?s not that the combustion does not exist when the Sun is one of the significators, it?s just that it means something different and won?t hinder perfection. This only applies when either the Sun is the querent and it's involved with the quesited, or when the Sun is the quesited and it's involved with the querent.

In the lost horse chart you also describe Mercury as a malefic, which is only true in the accidental sense. Look at how Lilly handles reception in Chapter XXVIII. He makes a distinction between plain old malefics, malefics that are debilitated and other planets that are debilitated. The hardest situations to get perfection, even with reception is when you?re dealing with a malefic that is debilitated, as it is in Peter?s chart. In the lost horse chart, Mercury being retrograde is a sign that it?s coming back to the querent. It being peregrine is a description of it being lost, or in place that is unfamiliar to the horse. In Peter?s chart, it is the job that he wants that is in detriment, peregrine and retrograde and those same terms would describe the job as being either bad for him, troubled, weak, out of reach, etc. It?s not that Lilly ignores these ideas in the lost horse chart; it?s just that they mean something different when dealing with a lost animal or possession than they do in a job question. If Mercury were in detriment, I assume that Lilly would say that the horse was injured in some way.

Hello to all of you,

I putted the following question 21 November 2006, 13:01, Bucharest, Romania (44N26, 026E06):
Will the money arrive to destination? (I use the whole sign house system)

Well surprise (for me at least, because the post men told me that none of the previous money order arrived in Italy, because of a technical problem. so I was affraid that my money will be returned), with Saturn as a significator in Leo squaring Sun and Jupiter combusted, in less than 2 week not only that the money arrived but I received also a good answer to my demanding.
So for me Steven confirmed an old intuition of mine. I am far away from what you could call an experienced astrologer in horary, so I could be wrong.

Peter? Any thoughts?

Hi Mark,
yes I have one or two but I'm still trying to put them into some kind of coherent sequence, given that it's 8.30 am here...

I really don't know what to say about that quote you cited that says that anytime you get two planets that are significators in an applying aspect that you get perfection. Whatever you do, don't tell this to all the love-lorn querents out there because I have enough trouble explaining why their opposition between Mars and Saturn does not bode well for eternal love. All I can say is that there must be more to that quote than meets the eye.

Well the term "perfection" in this context means that there will be some kind of resolution to the question, thanks to the fact that there is an applying aspect between the significators. The nature of that resolution depends upon the type of aspect being offered and equally importantly, the condition of the planets involved. Lilly doesn't seem to think that retrogradation is a hindrance in certain questions, for he tells us (I forget where for the moment) that if one of the significators is retrograde then perfection is performed suddenly.
He also tells us, on page 125 of C.A. that if the significators apply by square then things are brought to perfection "provided that each planet have dignity in the degrees wherein they are, and apply out of proper and good houses, otherwise not." Yet as Stephen rightly points out this statement is contradicted in the "missing horse" horary, where both Mercury and the Sun are ill dignified and on the cusp of the 8th house (hardly a "proper and good house"!), without reception, yet the horse is returned to the owner, safe and well.
What this contradiction suggests to me is that perfection - or rather, resolution - has the potential to be performed whenever there is an applying aspect between the significators, but other factors dictate whether the perfection is totally satisfactory to the querent.

What is an open question to me is when you have Saturn in the shape it's in now is whether it can promise nothing at all, or just nothing good?

That is the nub of this horary, in my opinion. Saturn here is in detriment, suggesting to me that any offer of a job overseas will not be to my friend's satisfaction, due to the nature of the company, or it's location, the contract, or whatever. Accepting the offer will cause my friend problems of one kind or another (application by square) and he may not have either the inclination or the resources to accept it (Moon in it's fall). My friend asked if he would procure "gainful" employment within the next 6 months and on this evidence I would have to say 'no', but I do believe he will be offered something, even though it won't be ideal and might even ask more of him than he is prepared to sacrifice. The company will "welcome" him however, because Venus (my friend's significator) is received into Saturn's dignity, showing that, regardless of the unsatisfactory nature of the position, the company will at least be happy to employ him.

The hardest situations to get perfection, even with reception is when you?re dealing with a malefic that is debilitated, as it is in Peter?s chart. In the lost horse chart, Mercury being retrograde is a sign that it?s coming back to the querent. It being peregrine is a description of it being lost, or in place that is unfamiliar to the horse. In Peter?s chart, it is the job that he wants that is in detriment, peregrine and retrograde and those same terms would describe the job as being either bad for him, troubled, weak, out of reach, etc.

These are my thoughts too, Mark. As for Saturn being retrograde, it suggests to me that this is a company that he has heard from in the past, or it is work that he has done previously and found to be unsatisfactory for one reason or another.

Finally, to Stephen I would just like to say thank you for offering the thoughts of Masha'allah on the subject of reception. I hadn't read his work before and I'm grateful to you for bringing him to my attention.

cheers,
Pete

There is no way, given my very limited knowledge, that I could intelligently enter this discussion. Nevertheless, I have a question. All of this discussion is about aspects and states of significators with an horary framework. My question is , does a weakened significator describe only outcome/action within the question asked, or does it also describe the state the actual person is in at that time?

Sasha, in your chart, the ruler of the money, jupiter is being applied to by the ruler of the other person, Sun. They are almost cazimi and in a cadent house (the 9th house by division) so it shows that the significators will come together very soon.

I don't want this topic to veer off to a seconf chart, so I'll keep this brief on hopefully on the main topic.

I?d see Mars as the significator of Sasha?s money. Not only does it rule his 2nd house, but also the Sun, who is the person to whom to the money is being sent, is received by Mars by sign and triplicity. In other words, Sasha?s money has sway and dominion over this person. The Sun has already past Mars, so as Sasha says, by the time of this question the person had already received the money. There are so many other things in this chart but I don?t want to get too far from the main topic here, and that I think is how can you get perfection of a question when you have a debilitated Saturn.

I think in Sasha?s question, Saturn as the ASC ruler is not involved here. Once Sasha sent the money, its delivery was up to the postal workers to deliver so Sasha is pretty much out of it. Though if could be said that Sasha had a role here to make sure the address was correct, that the postage was sufficient, and so on. But once that is done the matter is out of his hands.

This chart also references another point which was brought up above and this is that when the Sun is one of the significators in the action that you wish to happen, that combustion does not destroy perfection.

I hope that people don't take this as "combustion does not matter". It is only in limited situations like this, or with Lilly's lost horse chart. In Pete's chart, where the Mercury is applying to combustion, whatever Mercury symbolizes would lose power by combustion.

However what it means for Sasha being signified by a debilitated Saturn, in the sign and house of the other person, and this person?s attitude towards Sasha is another matter. Maybe that would make for a separate topic.

MarkF said

so as Sasha says, by the time of this question the person had already received the money

As I told you the money arrive after I posed the question ( I posed the question maximum 1 hour after I delivered the money to the post man; the destination was Italy so there is no possibility for the money to arrive in less than 2 hours from Bucharest to Milano ? it takes at least 5 or 7 days)

Also I think we can?t ignore that Saturn is actually in the 7 house (I use whole sign house system), so we have to take it in consideration too.

I'm going to restste my question in hopes someone will answer.

When you have a significator like Saturn in Leo retrograding, is that a picture of the person only within the context of the horary/question, or does it reflect a physical/psychological/emotional picture of the person as they exist in life?

Hi Moondance:
Taken from Olivia Barclay's 'Horary Astrology Rediscovered' book... "The Ascendant and its ruler should describe the querent; to the extent to which the querent is implicated in the question." Hope this helps.

kali