Philip, thank you for your very helpful explanation as to what this text actually is. I think it must be pure astrological gold and I'm like you -- I would go with holes in my shoes to buy an important astrology book, except that I can't subject my husband to the privations I would make on my own.

Granny, it's a solid idea and you're right, there have been collectives who have done the kind of thing you're talking about. Lately I've been giving a lot of thought to what will eventually happen to the books in astrologers' libraries, especially the volumes of interest to historians and the ones that tend to go out-of-print. A central repository would be wonderful.

Dear Granny,

Thank you for your supportive and helpful thoughts here!

When it comes to a project such as I'm envisaging, a joint venture would certainly have several advantages - quicker to start up owing to pooled funding, and multiple human resources combining expertise to engineer a better thought-through set of outcomes.

I must say that I would love to be able to work with willing European-based Skyscript members I've become pleasantly acquainted with on establishing such a project, such as Deb, Kim, Maurice or Garry for instance.

The disadvantages then come down to the practicalities of achieving such a project when each individual who might (and I'm making no presumptions here) possibly potentially be interested existingly lives in a different location and inevitably has different commitments and restrictions on time and resources.

For example, I'm married to someone who sees Stockholm very much as her home, and would not be willing to move from Sweden in any conceivable circumstance, although she enjoys summers in the countryside. This limits the scope of my plans in practice to the establishment of such a centre somewhere within this country. Sweden might be too far off for individuals and organisations from Britain or otherwise outside the Nordic countries to even consider getting involved management-wise, even though the aim is for a centre that would only be active in playing host to researchers during the summer time, and despite good, cheap air links between Sweden and the UK for example!

It might seem more logical for such a resource to be established in a stronger population centre of astrologers within Europe such as the UK, but for the fact that I'm not able to live there myself, and someone would have to keep an eye on the books all year round even if the centre was only in wider use during the summers.

Then again, the very remoteness of a Swedish countryside retreat for example might have its attractions to visiting serious researchers who want to be able to study and write in isolation from more mundane distractions, and a centre that was restricted to hosting a select group of pre-approved researchers who had submitted research and writing proposals approved by a governing board (whose members would be drawn from all astrologers and related organisations that had sponsored the project) overseeing the operation would certainly provide for the need for quiet study. The idea could be further developed to host annual conferences or intensive taught courses on particular astrological subjects. The possibilities are limitless. So it could work well eventually, but I don't hold out strong hopes of finding any support for starting it up from British quarters at this early stage!

I like the idea of a botanical garden, by the way. As a former amateur herb-grower who once came close to going into business running a herb nursery in Shropshire, England, I'm sure I could put together a nice astrologically themed medicinal herb garden some day!

Philip

Hello to all. For anyone who might be curious about the Rhetorius book, here is an update.

On Philip's suggestion, I wrote to the publisher and inquired as to whether or not the text is in English or Greek (since the compendium is, indeed, the critical edition from Pingree). Verlag Saur e-mailed me this morning and said that the text is entirely in Greek. So the book would be wasted on me -- but I know that there are some classical language scholars and collectors who will be thrilled to have a copy of this long-awaited work!

(Edited to add that Amazon lists the book for preorder as being in English, so I'll forward the Verlag Saur e-mail to them.)

Hi-
Many Pingree books mentioned to be in preparation never actually come out. There was , for instance, a volume on Dorotheus mentioned in Pingree's commentary on 'the Yavanajataka' that, for example, never saw the light of day.

That said, the good news is that despite their expense many college libraries continue to buy anything puts out with Pingree's name on it. I believe that down the road other translations of Rhetorius will be available. I think James Holden has translated the greater portion of Rhetorius but is missing a few chapters. It may well be that when this current Pingree edition sees the light of day (here's hoping) that other , more affordable translations will follow, particularly if the entire manuscript in Latin is all there.

We are fortunate insofar as more and more skilled astrologers are learning Latin. I believe in the new future Ben Dykes will be publishing translations of both Bonatti and Sahl ibn Bishr (Zahel). Rob Hand is supposed to come through with some Haly Abenragel. Perhaps the recent excellent edition of Al-Qabisi (Alchabitius) published by the Wharburg Institue is more widely available in England as well?

Thanks for the information that Rhetorius is being published in the original Greek. This to me, with an odd college semester of Classical greek in my recent past makes it far more appealing.

Hi Scott, and welcome to the forum!

Yes, I am delighted to think about all the translations that might become available to us in the not-too-distant future. I would love it if James Holden were to translate Rhetorius -- I have all of his available Morinus translations and they have become a mainstay for me. Thank you for the notice about the other books that are in the works! There is much to be thankful for.

I hope that you will enjoy the Rhetorius volume from Pingree -- how wonderful that you have studied Greek!

The Morin method teaching school known as the 'Forum on Astrology' states in this page that he has also already translated books 13, 14, 15 and 25 of the Astrologia Gallica, and that they were expected to be published last year (2006). I take this as a strong indication that at least some of them are likely to be published in 2007, and if not all, the rest will probably follow in 2008! That is, unless there is some problem delaying publication of course.

http://www.forumonastrology.com/holden.html

I should think it most likely that Robert Schmidt will have looked in considerable depth at Rhetorius already, and subscribers to Project Hindsight's second edition series of translations are likely to reap the fruits of his knowledge in due course, although it may be a few years down the running order of publications, in which case perhaps James Holden's rumoured translation will arrive in the stores first! (By the way, for any non-subscribers reading this, although the second series of Project Hindsight's translations was first publicised through the relaunched Project Hindsight website around February 2004, and the first fascicle was then slated for going to print in April 2004, further research by Robert Schmidt requiring a revision of his understanding of certain key semantic concepts in the literature of Greek astrology has delayed the final launch of the entire series by almost three years since then, and it is now expected that the first fascicle will be published in the early months of 2007, so it is certainly not too late to sign up in time for the entire series.)

I think I'll have to follow in your footsteps with learning some ancient Greek, Scott! It must come in useful for understanding many of these texts from the source, which is always preferable to relying on translations.

Philip

I do hope that the long-awaited second and third books from Johann Sch?ner's 'De Iudiciis Nativitatum Libri Tres' will be among Rob Hand's priorities for publication! There are no originals available for sale in Latin at any price currently, and his existing translation of the first book leaves one hungry for the second and third, although I believe these are shorter books.

His website has mentioned that the second and third books are forthcoming for at least three years now. Of course, his study commitments have had to come first, so everything else understandably had to be put on hold, but it would certainly be sad if these translations never saw the light of day.

Philip

Hi Philip! Like you, I'm hoping that the next two volumes of Schoener will become available soon. I think that Robert Hand is working on a book of his own about dignities and hopes to have it available by the time of UAC in May 2008, and maybe he'll have time to publish Schoener, as well. I'm a subscriber to Project Hindsight and look forward to the new editions of Robert Schmidt's work.

More Morinus, that's my cry! I keep checking in with Astroamerica and AFA to be sure that I'm current.

Hi-
The first volume of The Astrologer's Edition (the new Project Hindsight tranlation series) threatens to be upon us soon. Last summer at the Hindsight Conclave I saw a mock up of the actual cover. It's my understanding that much of the Rhetorius work is a paraphrase of an earlier Antiochus tome (not the Thesaurus but another work), but there is so much information rattling around in my brain these days it's possible I am mistraken!

There is one very good home study system for learning Koine Greek available. With CDs on lecture, a textbook, and work book (with optional answer key), it is the preferable means for scholars wanting to do self study...its by William D. Mounce. I will have to check the title. It's NOT Biblical Greek for the Rest of Us. Thats his work more geared to the general reader who does not desire to read the actual texts! Amazon has the Mounce book. (I think it's called 'Basics of Biblical Greek').

I believe James Holden has a couple of more volumes of Morinus tranlated and awaiting publication from AFA. Please all do continue to badger the AFA to get these books in print asap! <lol> Meanwhile I doff my baseball cap to the AFA for having gotten these earlier volumes of Holden's translation out to the world at large.

Project Hindsight is any day now supposed to publish The Hellenistic Astrology Sourcebook, an intro collection of texts and lessons pertaining to
Greek astrology. Not too late to order it...I have the earlier editions which were privately publ;ished in tandem with the course on Hellenistic astrology taught by Demetra George at kepler College.

Has anybody here read 'A Brief History f Ancient Astrology'. The author is a skeptic and mostly in the thrall of Barton and Bouche-Leclerq but so far it's rather good.

all my best,

Scott

Hi Scott! I haven't read "A Brief History of Ancient Astrology." There are so many books I'd love to get my hands on.

I am delighted to hear that AFA has more Morinus translations in the pipeline and am eagerly awaiting the Astrologers Edition volumes from Project Hindsight.

The Greek home-study material sounds very interesting. I might look into that, not because (at age 57) I stand much chance of becoming proficient enough to read original texts, but so that I'll have a better grasp of pronunciation and general feeling for the language.

One reason these books are expensive is the compiler / translator has to be paid for his time. Takes a very long time to track down all the various pieces scattered over the world & make some sense of them. David Pingree published his translation of Dorotheus 30 years ago, and along with it, published at least as many untranslated fragments he could not fit anyplace. Some people, looking at those fragments, think there's a mine of information still to be translated.

I myself would gladly commission translations of Rhetorius & Vettius Valens, at least as I fear both will be badly translated, but I do not have the money to do so. It is certain that ordinary astrologers cannot afford to pay for skilled translators. There's just not enough of us to make a real market.

One solution, once the academic tome has been published & distributed, is to get the publisher's permission for a "popular" edition. One lacking the original language (eg, half the size) & in a cheap paperback binding, which are unattractive to academic libraries. With a few exceptions, university libraries, not professors, are the primary market for high priced academic editions.

Rob Hand is busy with Ph.D. studies at a Catholic university near Washington DC. As I understand things, he needs the degree to teach at Kepler. I do not know what his plans are, but I am not hopeful he will soon delight us with new translations. Instead of waiting for a savior, we should look to ourselves.

The AFA will soon publish Morin's book 25. It should be by the end of March. I suspect there will soon be changes with that grey old lady.