"If a question is asked regarding a mundane situation in which the querant is not personaly involved but has a strong sympathy and inclination, then use the 1st house to represent the party the querant favours and supports."

OK.

Thanks for all your comments.

I'll come back on them.

Of course as I am renew to Horary so I can't argue with your knowledge.

The commitment thing is wrong because I am clearly committed to knowing the answer.

It's a very serious sitiuation and having played serious sport for more than half my life I certainly am attached to a situation were a coach might loose his life because of his connection to sport.

There were certainly a few refs I'd like to have seen the end of.

I've certainly been in sitations where men were clearly trying to murder it each, and have been on the receiving end of such.

It's why sports are played so that we don't need to let our hatreds spell on to the street.

As they say sports not about life and death, it's more than that.

It is fundementally important to me.

The only limiting factor is that if you use a psychic source to generate your persoanl queries then you won't be asking many because you only ask things that way when the Great Spirit talks.

For me its all good stuff.

The commitment thing is wrong because I am clearly committed to knowing the answer.

Then let?s accept you at your word because I believe that even astrologers who are ?new at this? can get great results because of their enthusiasm. I have also done these kinds of charts, and some of them have meant a lot to me, even without the personal involvement. My first attempt at qualifying for the QHP course was rejected because I submitted a chart that gave a prediction on a political issue, and was told that others would have asked the same question before me. I saw some of the other predictions ? they were wrong, mine turned out to be ?spot on?, and it was based on one very powerful moment when I felt deeply connected to the concern I was asking about. That?s why I don?t rule these sorts of charts out, but I do think we have to be careful about turning lightly to public issues in the belief that horary gives us insight into anything and everything. We also have to be careful about treating those charts lightly or flippantly, because if you have taken it upon yourself to ask a question then the art demands that you give it your full consideration. It deserves to be the thing that stops you sleeping at nights

This early ascendant means something. I hardly ever get a chart with an early ascendant, but I see them a lot in the charts of new students ? it may be something to do with the fact that at the moment your knowledge of horary, as well as what you are asking about, is too new for you to understand the full implications of the chart you have drawn.

Only one of my recent charts comes to mind where I had an early ascendant. The question came by email and it concerned a missing person who was very much loved. The chart seemed extremely clear to me but because I hardly ever get a chart with an early ascendant it bothered me that this one did. Then I looked a lot more closely at the email asking the question, and wrote to ask for the date of birth of the querent under the pretence that this was important to my judgement. That was when I realised that a very serious question, that I had thought had come from a mature adult, had actually been sent by a child. It meant I had a much greater responsibility to be careful about how I responded, yet I wouldn?t have given a thought to this prospect had it not been for the early ascendant ? English was not the querent?s first language, so it was never obvious to me that a child had written the email. I am hearing a lot about the fact that ?every chart can be read? ? of course they can, but not every chart should be read, and not all of those that are read are judged as wisely as they ought to be.

OK

As to timing I could have waited up to 20 mins for my gut feeling to develop.

Maybe that is a rule of thumb for me to use for my own rare queries.

I understood that it was vital to record the exact time the question came to mind.

The problem with that is that I know what is happening in the skies just now so the more I rationalised it suggestd the more my mental powers would take over from setting a chart.

I note that charts near the Asc and near 2nd are usually disqualified.

So I have thought more, of course there is info coming in from the press.

But my chart shows Aries on 8th and Venus in 8th but in Taurus. May be that only means Venus in 8th ruled by Aries.

So we go to Mars.

Seriously seriously seriously iffilicted by retro detro Saturn.

Mars is applying to Moon also a signifiyer so affliced Mars means fighting I think assualt.

Don't know what seperating Moon Venus means.

The question is how to read cause of death. Head or neck.

If we should use the 20 min rule for spiritually conceived charts it puts Taurus nearer the 8th house. And rules out any conection with Mars other than the applying square.

I don't know enough to say if Mars applying is more significant than Aries on 8th.

However, naturally I began to wonder who the attackzr was.

I think Mars represents the attacker more than Saturn.

Is there a program that tells which applies first?

Maybe it suggests 2 parties but Mars would represent assault, maybe Saturn something else.

Anway evil coming in from "associates" and "friends" but the falseness ruled by the condition of 11th.

Also 5th rules betting.

I think the chart needs to be turned but if not 11th ruled by Sun on the Desc. Very tight orb.

That is usually not good.

Sorry I can't read this much more because we have Sun ruler of 11th in Aries the sign of Mars.

Clearly there is a strong link between Saturn, Mars, Sun,

.................. I can't get it altogether.

Receptions I think are there.

Sun in Aries, Sun detro in Aquarius,

Somebody better then me needs to join the dots.

but Sun on the Dsc clearly is very sifgnificant.

Exhausted.

Turn the charts tomorrow.

You will clearly try to read this chart despite the efforts of those with more experience in horary warning you away from it, so good luck!

Somebody better then me needs to join the dots.

This seems to be an important point in the discussion. You took this on so it is for you and only you to decide whether to complete it or abandon it. It could be a good learning exercise for you, but not if you expect that someone else will come along and join up the dots.

I'll watch with interest. Like Gunhilde I wish you good luck!

Hello Yikkes!,

I understood that it was vital to record the exact time the question came to mind.

This thought might be part of the problem - it is not that simple. There is a difference between asking the question and asking the question of the heavens. Deb explains it best in her article Questioning Our Horaries

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html

Best regards,
Christina

"Woolmer: it was murder

? Pakistan coach was strangled
? Killing 'extraordinary and evil', say police

Ed Pilkington in Kingston
Friday March 23, 2007
The Guardian

A huge murder hunt was launched last night after Jamaican police confirmed that Bob Woolmer, the coach of the Pakistan cricket team, was strangled in his hotel room by one or more killers in circumstances which investigators described as "extraordinary and evil".

So are we going to try to find the definition of the attackers?

or I'll be left to do all the leg work with no reason to share my reasoning.

Seems to contradict the idea of a forum.

My judgement yesterday was that his death involved great evil.

I progressed the chart by 20 mins and went to Reg houses.

If I stuck with Plac houses Taurus would be on the cusp of the 8th.

Problem is that I can't get what I see as a valid link with Mars to the "querant".

I've only got Mars applying to the Moon.

However, Moon in 8th nocturally is said to be "sinister".

Aries and Taurus suggesting problems with head and neck.

Mars involved, and miwed up with Saturn in some sort of really crazy reciprication which I am unable to detail.

Other than to note that Saturn is in Leo, the Sun has just crossed the Dsc, it is in Aries, and Mars in Aquarius opposing Saturn.

So there is some sort of "merry" go round there.

Got this one recently.

How was he murdered?

9.15am plus 20mins Genolhac 23 Mars 07

ha haaaaaaaaaaa

Yikkes, I can?t see the point in sending me a private mail asking for my opinion, when you head it with the comment of how tempted you are to "break into the tune of na na nana na", and finish it with a ?ha haha?!

Yes it was murder. But at the time of your first question murder was already looking very likely. As you say in your first post:

?They think he might have been murdered or mugged and died.?

The chart is very descriptive of his death - but you seemed to be suggesting that the death occurred as the result of an accident or manslaughter.

OK my judgement is something very sinister and evil happened but it was not planned murder.

Not murder in a clear attempt to kill.

This is because I can't see any link between the rulers of the Asc and the malefics.

The malefics however are applying a very tight opposition with Saturn in detriment.

So great evil meeting evil.

Are you still sticking to that?

Part of my feeling that you were being warned not to be pre-emptive in your judgement was that the chart is much more descriptive of murder ? look at the emphasis around the 7th house. The angular Sun on the 7th cusp suggests that the details will be made public very soon.

When Gunhilde suggested that there was possibly more to consider, you said no, and made your judgement against murder. You were rejecting advice at that stage, having made your mind up. If you sense reluctance for feedback I think that is because you seem to be forming conclusions first and then asking for help in how to find those conclusions in the chart.

I don?t approve of PMs asking me to comment in private on charts posted on the board, but I can see how much this chart means to you so I?ll answer your questions here.

1/ Yes I do agree with your assignation of the victim to the ascendant. The 1st-ruler in the 8th house shows descriptive confirmation by describing him as dead at the time of the question. Remember to consider the Moon too, also descriptive in Taurus in the 8th.

2/ The attacker is signified by Mars which rules the 7th of enemies and attackers. Mars opp Saturn shows frustration erupting and also (since Mars rules the 8th) the manner of death ? strangulation (Saturn). Moon and Venus in Taurus in the 8th heighten the emphasis on strangulation.

You don?t need to separate Saturn or Mars to decide who was the culprit because Saturn is integrated into the signification of Mars. The Sun on the 7th cusp will also help to describe the attacker ? it suggests that it is someone well known, and also suggests that he won?t be able to hide himself. For further exploration, I suggest that you try to derive a physical description of the attacker based on this chart. You might also want to consider the influence of the fixed stars.

To consider the background to the event look at the separating aspects.
I?m really confused by what you say about the 20 mins progression of the question.

I haven?t looked at the 2nd chart, but I think you could probably get a lot more out of this chart first before moving on to another. You have a good, descriptive chart here. It is worth you spending time on it.

Deb

As to benefitting from the loss we are working on the small possibility of a Mr Big figure.

Alternatively the team needed such a shake up that the loss opened that possibility.

There is a Karmic theme that suggest his death will lead to the exposure of lots of dirty which can then be cleaned.


There is truly plenty to glean yet from this very sorry affair.


Add 20mins to the Insight time to get a realler time.

That is the time it would have taken me to think thru whether I was just being totally ridiculous. Then I either would have accepted the question or forgotten about it.


OK. Thanks. I'll work thru that.

Yes I'm sticking by unpremeditate assault.

Somebody he knew well enough (11th/5th) came and spoke to him.

My inclination was some sort of confrontation that got out of hand.

Aries on 7th. Get the link to Mars.

(but we could have gone with 12th I suppose for hidden enemies.)


Thanks seperation represents what happened before.

Didn't know that.


Sadly it is pretty clear.

I spun the chart to put 7th as 1st.

Capricorn on 10th.

High position but ruled by realo messo Saturn.

5th/11th relate to the role of child (to the Coach).

I've coached.

I know how fully grown sportsmen can behave.

Who plays the role of 10th house for the childern?

But why oh why oh why?

oh why oh why oh why oh why


There is no doubt there is stacks in the chart but I find it hard to get more correctly derived information.

Intuition gets in the way.

Yikkes I have just edited my above post to take out some comments I made earlier that applied to a different chart. Bizarrely, the other chart on my desk, dated several years earlier, was the same angles and also with Venus and the Moon in Taurus in the 8th, and the Sun on the desc ? except Mars was conjunct Saturn on the descendant instead of in opposition ? hence many of my comments still applied and I have left those in. Weird situation!, but wanted to alert you to any confusion I might have left by my earlier comments, such as those that related to the previous aspects.

Deb