I thought these articles were extremely well written and researched. I thoroughly appreciated their content.

However, I have a question. Does essential or accidental dignity impact denial of perfection?

Tobyn, in laying out denial completely ignores reception and dignity in his text. For example, in discussing return of light in part two, he states a retrograde or otherwise impedited planet returns the light of the applying planet. But will the dignity of the applying planet or the dignity of the planet receiving the application affect the outcome?

For example, I have a recent daytime chart where the significators the Sun in Aries and Saturn in Leo Rx apply to a trine. The Sun is in joy in the 9H and extremely strong and benefic, Saturn is in the 1H not quite conjunct the ASC strengthened by being is easy aspect to his ruler and angular. Or so I thought. In my studies I've read time and again that planets benefit when their rulers are dignified and in aspect. That the Sun in such reception abates malice and extends its virtue, and ought to strengthen Saturn.

However Tobyn's article advises that a Rx significator returns the light and thus perfection is denied. Moreover, the Sun is cadent though in joy. Sun and Saturn cannot perfect their trine if I read Tobyn correctly.

I had advised my friend to expect a good outcome in the matter but I worry now that Rx Saturn means denial.

Any thoughts on this matter?

Hi 1000Camels!---

I have still to read the articles. But i have read some thing about perfection and denial. I think we have to take into consideration essential and accidental dignities.

-Saturn in the house of its detriment and Rx is very malevolent

-Saturn in Ascendant shows that whatever mischief he is going to do, it will be noticed.

-Only Jupiter can lessen the Malevolency of the Greater Infortune i.e Saturn. (Aphorism No 4 Hermes)

-Jupiter few days ago and still is in its own house though Rx and most probably had a Trine aspect with Saturn.

-Sun in Aries was a very strong Sun.

-Sun is in applying Trine.

-Saturn is in essential dignities of Sun. Basically he is in Sun house. A guest.

-If a Sun asks Malicious visitor in his house to extend him a favour. Most probably the Malicious has to do it. Cause being in the house of Sun and being applied by a Strong Sun. Saturn is overwhelmed by the Sun.

-An application to a planet which is RX show that there might be suddenness of action. It could break suddenly or make suddenly. My humble opinion is that it would be perfection.

P.s Saturn is Lord of 7th. He can do most mischief. So Saturn should not have any objection for a perfection. Cause he would be able to do more mischief if he is in a relationship

Hi STJ,
Thanks for your reply. Very much appreciate it. I see your points.

I have one objection to the above, about the trine. And that objection is that the trine is an aspect of perfect agreement and affection. Therefore, whatever Saturn represents, the Sun in a trine will easily form a relationship to it.

Saturn in Leo has some problems its true. He?s detrimented, retrograde and angular, he has the power to express what negativity he symbolizes. If malefic Saturn stands for guns and violence, the Sun goes right along with the plan. The Sun gives due respect and comfort to Saturn however, and must do so. For though Saturn may be difficult, lacking in confidence, conservative and slow to act, Sun will attend all visitors to his domicile.

So here?s chart data from my first post: 3 April 2007 2:16pm Daylight Savings Time, Philadelphia PA Regio 12 LEO 52 ?What do I need to understand regarding my communication with X? Have the changes I?ve made improved the situation?

The querent had recently broken off letter writing and e-mail with her long distance love interest. She was unsatisfied with her letters and quesited?s responses to them. She had been doing heavy soul-searching about what changes to make to empower herself and enhance her ability to listen. Her unspoken concern was whether it would be a good idea to continue with the quesited in the future, as the quesited returns home this May and they will be in the same city. The chart is radical: planetary hour ruler Mars is the same nature as the ASC. Plus, the house positions of the significators clearly reflect the question.

Deb?s article on receptions and the Crusader actors in a tent helped me visualize what?s likely to occur. In the chart, you can see the trine between significators and that Sun receives Rx detrimented Saturn in a strong one-way reception in domicile and triplicity. Such openness to a malefic implies that impedited Saturn can hurt the Sun and deny the promise of the trine. However, the Sun is strong and in joy; being damaged by Saturn is unlikely, coupled by the fact that the aspect between them is a trine=affinity. In addition, Saturn is in the ASC, very keen on the querent but also in her power. And Saturn is in a partile trine with Jupiter (partile meaning less than 1 degree apart).

If we turn things around and envision a hypothetical chart where Saturn received the Sun in a one-way reception, then I would assume that the application of the Sun trine to Saturn indicates as you say a favor being asked of Saturn by the Sun; a favor that could be rejected. In my case I think that because Saturn is ruled by and is receiving the trine of the Sun, Saturn will hold off his malefic nature and will permit his ruler to attend him as an honored guest. Saturn is in a place in the zodiac where the Sun can get to him.

Owing to Saturn?s ruler being so strong, I think he will accept the Sun?s strength and virtue but only very cautiously. The Sun has to be patient, difficult for the Sun so well dignified in Aries and in joy. Too, Saturn is angular in the ASC and thus will have the power to act on what is implied in the trine if the Sun/querent shpould address him. Plus the application is a mutual one, the significators both apply to each other. As for dignity and reception, the circular reception between significators and co-significators led me to believe that these two genuinely like and care for each other, and this break in communication was a hiccup in their on-going romance.

That was the gist of my judgment, so you can imagine my horror to hear that retrograde significators give back the virtue bestowed upon them and deny perfection!

I think I must have suffered a brain cramp when I started this thread. Yes, a retrograde or otherwise impedited planet can return the light of an applying significator. And of course, dignity and reception will impact denial of perfection. But it is also true that a planet?s ruler well-placed and strong lends strength and virtue to a planet.

As always, let?s look at an example. Lilly has a fine one: CA p. 196. Here? s a chart about the safe return home of a brother. The querent?s planet is Rx cadent Saturn in Fall. Venus represented the absent brother, and she peregrine and debilitated in the 12H. Talk about return of light! These two shouldn?t get together at all! But they do, Lilly tells us happily and well. Notice that the aspect is a trine, and Saturn?s ruler Mars is strong in Scorpio conjunct the MC and Venus? ruler Jupiter, though Rx and cadent, is exalted in Cancer. The essential dignity and strength of the ruling planets may lend their power to aid the application of such weak significators. The trine is a dexter trine as well. These are clues that perfection is likely.

Lilly writes:
?you shall observe, that as well the Significator of the absent Brother, who is Venus, as Saturn Lord of the Ascendant doe apply to each other by a friendly Trine; for Saturn though a ponderous Planet, yet being Retrograde and in more degrees of the Signe then Venus, does by Retrogradation apply to meet her: a very good argument that the Querent should heare newes of his Brother very suddenly;?

Tobyns? article implies that such impedited significators might well return the light of the applying trine and deny perfection. Tobyn also points out that a combust or retrograde ruler of the Ascendant will be apt to return the light from an application. If both significators are cadent or retrograde the situation is so bad that little of value can come from the horary. In the Lilly example however, the Ascendant ruler is in fall and retrograde and both significators are cadent yet they still perfect to the joy of the parties involved. As Tobyn has stated, Lilly's judgment of perfection illustrates that by the 18th cent. return of light had ?melted? into the manner in which every planet, impedited or no, is subject to evaluation.

So I?m left to conclude that return of light is, as with all things in horary, a matter of art and intuition. If, in my chart above, Saturn and Sun had been poorly placed in weak houses, I?d be more inclined to think that a Rx significator for the quesited would not deliver. Yet here, significators apply to a trine out of good houses, reinforced with co-significators applying trine. In addition, Saturn is just a few minutes from his turn direct at the time of the chart and signifies impending improvement in Saturn?s outlook toward the querent. I told her to wait until after April 19 when Saturn turned direct before she made any decision about contacting the quesited.

Each chart will be different. And where medieval astrologers considered an impedited planet unable to deliver any promise, Tobyn reminds us that Lilly goes a step further and suggests that all planets should be subject to some level of evaluation rather than a blanket condition of denial. And as we all know Lilly devised a dignity table to help with weighing and evaluating horary symbols. (Sounds like a Taurus Sun to me!)

Both articles are excellent and really got me thinking.

Cheers!

Hi 1000Camels!--

Your analysis of the horary is wonderful. I have only one objection. The question mostly resolved around the point that if it would be better to continue or resume relationship with X. If i get Saturn (Peregrine) as a significator i would prefer not to continue the relationship even if there are arguments of perfection.

Hey, read this link. In the later part of interview Maurice says that if two or three planets are involved in an aspect (configuration), they dont let others join. Thought provoking

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mccann.html

Regards

STJ