Gunhilde,

I agree with your interpretation of the chart, and think it is quite a masterly summation too it seems to fit very well with the situation of the querent, on all levels. The 2.5 degrees/2.5 years correlation is too close and descriptive of the querent's past to be a coincidence. In fact I would take this aspect as PROOF of radicality, i.e. the chart IS fit to be judged, because we have past events so clearly described!

STJ - I see what you're saying, but despite the fact that it appears to be a simple technique, the rules for timing in horary are not hard and fast. I have found this out repeatedly in my own work, as you no doubt will too as you continue your studies. It's frustrating that timing is such a sticky issue, but it is how it is. Just because it doesn't follow a rule laid down by Lilly does not mean that it is not true or that it does not work.

My own personal view on the Pleiades being on the 7th would be that even though it is on the 7th, it relates primarily to the querent. This is her question, after all. I would go for some touchy-feely pseudo-psychology interpretation, such as "You are still hurting/weeping/grieving about past relationships." Combined with the very late Asc, I would say this chart has a strong theme of needing to move on and leave the past behind! Perhaps she senses it is time to move on, away from past hurts, and she needs confirmation from you that this is OK to do.

Keren

Hi Kerehappuch!

The data that Gunhilde gave yields Ascendant at 0.00, however her clarification that the question was received in a nearby village supports 29.58 Ascendant. If i see from late ascendant point of view, i have no difference of opinion. Gunhilde is spot on. .

Though Moon applies to Venus (Quesited) but on her way she also aspects Saturn and Jupiter. (Change of focal point)

This is a really good question!

I would have taken Alcyone on the 7th cusp meaning the quesited had something to weep about or could not see clearly. To me that would make sense, as you said the querent was the one who broke off the relationship and the quesited was shocked. In that case I would see the quesited as the one weeping. I would take that as meaning they were hurt and as a result of that hurt may not want to re-enter the relationship OR more likely that it might make them an unhappy partner to be with.

In the same vein, if Shaula was on the 7th cusp I would read it that Shaula was an attribute of the quesited, that they had a sting in their tail. And that potentially would hurt the querent.

Likewise, If Neptune was on the 7th cusp I would think there was something deceptive or cloudy about the quesited, and that had the potential to hurt the querent. Its a very different slant if neptune is on the ASC, as that would show the querent was deceiving themselves.

The receptions seem to show the querent thinks more of the quesited than vice versa. The querent exalts the quesited, and exaltation is slightly inflated and notoriously doesn't last. I think thats why the Moon (querents heart) is near Vindematrix (widow maker) and also why the ASC degree is so late. Vindematrix can also be read as harvest, in the sense that you reap what you sow.

It seems past time that the querent will take action and will soon change their mind (ie ASC about the change signs). Mars could also be read as conjunct Uranus now.

After reading all the responses, I was not sure, but I wanted to share my thoughts as they were originally.

Red Shoes.

Hi Kerehappuch!

Timing is indeed a very tricky issue. I got stung by it in other occult studies.

However, i was depending on John Frawley article. 2.5 time unit does seem to correspond with 2.5 years. But the element of fixity was missing. Perhaps thats the place where Lark has to sing.

Hello,

I have been away for a while so have had little time to really study this chart. However, this thread has raised a very interesting issue.

I would have taken Alcyone on the 7th cusp meaning the quesited had something to weep about or could not see clearly. To me that would make sense, as you said the querent was the one who broke off the relationship and the quesited was shocked. In that case I would see the quesited as the one weeping. I would take that as meaning they were hurt and as a result of that hurt may not want to re-enter the relationship OR more likely that it might make them an unhappy partner to be with.

In the same vein, if Shaula was on the 7th cusp I would read it that Shaula was an attribute of the quesited, that they had a sting in their tail. And that potentially would hurt the querent.

I suppose the key difference here is whether we give more weight to the 7th house cusp as the indicator of just a partner or an indicator of the relationship in general? As this is horary rather than natal astrology surely the nature of the question is very important in determining this?
For example if a querent, asked 'does he love me?' it would seem much more clearly tied up with the attitude of the partner towards the querent. On the other hand if a general question is asked I would tend to give it a similarly general signification around the future prospects of a relationship as a whole. However, if Lord 7 was debilitated or peregrine I might be more inclined to accept such a negative judgement of the partner's motivations. Similarly, we could draw evidence from the placement of Lord 7 by house, aspect etc. Actually, I think a powerful fixed star exactly conjunct Lord 7 would be something I would more readily accept as descriptive of their motivation/mental state.

As I stated earlier I feel context is everything. Thats why I don't think it is wise to adopt a fixed predetermined attitude to such issues. As Lillly said we need to mix discretion with art. I also think we have to accept the role of intuition in horary. Sometimes something just shouts out to you in a chart!

Yes it is a really good question being raised. It might help to have the exact wording of the question to know where it was focussed.

Maybe its both. The star is connected to the X and hence the relationship as well.

I really dont have enough experience with many charts to know but I guess everyone learns if we all try to show our thoughts.

My original reasoning for this chart was as follows:

I read that the X was in their own house not coming out to play. I also felt that they had moved on, as Lord 7 was in a different sign from the 7th house cusp, separating from the querents main significator. The x has dignity by terms but is about to lose that in less than a degree. When I put all those things together with the description of the breakup, I thought the weeping was connected to the X.

Though, looking at it again,

The querents moon (heart) is not on Vindematrix, its just past it. It is applying to trine the X's Venus, but it perfects the aspect in the Via Combusta which doesnt sound good for the querents heart. The Moon is in a Venus sign and trining Venus, so it looks like the querent would actually approach the X. What confuses me, is that there is no mutual reception between the significators to show the X wanting to come out of his house or wanting to be with teh querent. I cant get past it being a trine though which implies ease, and the aspect does perfect. That makes me unsure whether its sucessful or not.

Its interesting to me that the X is in a different sign (Gemini) to the 7th cusp (Taurus). Im not sure what to make of that. In Taurus, Venus would have been in dignity, and it would have received Mars by detriment. That seems to make a storyline for the weeping sisters showing the x's hurt resulting from the breakup.

I dont know if there is a case of him having moved on from that hurt, as he is in a different sign to his cusp, and accidently dignified in the 7th. Maybe his being in his own house is just saying the querent will have to go to him. What I notice though is hes only just clinging to dignity, in less than a degree he becomes peregrine again. he might be unhappy again.

Weeping sisters seems to say that he has the baggage from the original relationship and that may be a difficulty for the relationship in general.

I do see that the next sign for the X's Venus is Cancer, once there it is in the moons sign. Im not sure if that means anything though. It seems to contradict the timing of the chart that has already been noted. That showed Venus moving a degree a year.

Im sorry my post is so muddled. I hope it makes some sense and brings up more points for discussion.

Red Shoes

Hi folks,

The original question was, "What are the chances X and I will be together again?" (to that effect) with the querent considering contacting the X again being the crux of the decision.

I too was looking at that Moon/Venus trine. There is no collection/translation of light between Mars/Moon/Venus, and only part-reception. Nonetheless, it *is* still a trine, so what does it mean for the final outcome?

The Moon first sextiles Saturn, 3rd ruler, from the sign of Saturn's exaltation; then it sextiles Jupiter, ruler in this chart of the 'end of the matter' 4th house. Jupiter is in domicile, but retrograde. I wonder if this means 'the end is not the end', because it changes direction again.

Redshoes, thanks for your input. I very much like your interpretation of the state of Venus, in house but different sign. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

I think the Pleiades in this question *may well* reflect both the state of the *quesited* AND the state of the relationship. Because of the context, it doesn't feel right to separate the star from the angle. Some of the Sisters are in Taurus, Venus ruler; some are in Gemini, Venus sign. Venus is in his 'own' house, thinking of himself, yes?

GH

Gunhilde, I completely missed the moons application to Saturn and Jupiter, thats a possible prohibition or frustration isnt it? I cant bring the chart up at present so Im working from memory so please correct me if Im wrong.

Might be worthy trying to work out what/who Saturn and Jupiter is. Could the X have met someone else and the querent hears of this? Moon exalts Saturn, that means that Saturn has inflated power over the moon. Venus (X) is separating from Saturn. Saturn is debilitated in Leo. Jupiter is dignified in Sag so strong. (and are Saturn and Jupiter rx, stationary or slow in the chart)

The Moon (querents heart) is to enter the Via Combusta, from then on it is distressed, and that implies the querents emotions. That then paints a picture for the weeping sisters on the 7th to be evocative for the relationship and querent as Mark said.

I am glad you asked your question as i have several charts with something on the 7th cusp and I will be able to go back and look at them again.