I am currently seeing someone, but have a feeling he might be seeing someone (a girl) on the side. For interests sake I asked the question:

Will he break with me and be with her?
My sun squares his saturn - I am meeting him.

He is in my first house? I am in my 10th house and in his 4th.

Moon (representing me) is on the decendent 7th house - what does it show?

Pluto is about to oppose venus.. what does it mean?

Do I take the other girl as Jupiter (lord of the 11th from his house the 7th?)
Or do I take her as mercury, lord of the 5th from his side 7th?

If I take her as Jupiter, it seems to be going to trine saturn - but the sun will square it first. Jupiter is retrograde.
If I take her as mercury, it has just moved from an aspect to mars.

Could someone help me with this chart?
Many thanks

Moon and venus have just seperated from an aspect.

Currently the Sun applies immediately to square Saturn, showing your relationship developing.

Jupiter meanwhile moves R away from the trine to Saturn, showing a relationship which is already in existence but which may be waning.

The only contender for "the other woman" is Jupiter R at 18 Sag, in a very close trine to Lord 7 (Saturn). This is suspiciously close. However, there is not a strong mutual reception between them, which indicates that this relationship is not serious.

I would take heart from the fact that L7 is in the 1st house - he's crazy about you! Being in your sign and no major dignities of Jupiter shows he likes you more than whatever person or thing Jupiter signifies.

It's a personal horary so I'm going to ask a personal question - when you say "seeing", is your relationship with this chap rather casual and based on an understanding that there is no agreement to be monogamous? Or are you in a commited monogamous relationship and you suspect he may be cheating?

If it's understood either of you are free to see other lovers, then yes, he has recently had another lover. But so what? You knew that this relationship was only casual from the start.

Either way, he likes you a whole lot more - Saturn is in major Sun dignities! And the Sun/Saturn aspect applies, indicating the relationship will continue to develop.

Other points - Moon in 7th shows you are emotionally very attached to him right now (Moon shows our emotions). Did this relationship start off mainly sexual and now your feelings have deepened as a result? The Moon is right on the 7th cusp, indicating your deeper feelings for him have begun very recently. Also, your significator (L1 - the Sun) being in Venus dignities indicates you are interested in exercising your "woman-stuff" (Venus as general significator of the "animal woman").

I don't think any other planets have a bearing on this question. We look at L1, your thinking being, Moon, your feeling being, and Venus, your sexual being. For him we look at L7 to show him only as the Sun (his sexual being) is already in use as L1, which takes precedent as Sun/Venus are only secondary significators. I chose Jupiter to show the other woman as Saturn/Jupiter are in such a close aspect, regardless of house rulership.

Hope this makes sense.

Keren

Dear Keren,

You're awesome, thank you!

It's a personal horary so I'm going to ask a personal question - when you say "seeing", is your relationship with this chap rather casual and based on an understanding that there is no agreement to be monogamous? Or are you in a commited monogamous relationship and you suspect he may be cheating?

No, it's not very casual.. there is a silent understanding of monogamy, even if none was said.

If it's understood either of you are free to see other lovers, then yes, he has recently had another lover. But so what? You knew that this relationship was only casual from the start.

What if it wasn't understood; does that mean he did also have another lover? I think he might have had another lover before me though. I wonder what it represented.
Is the lover represented by Jupiter, or was it Venus?

Other points - Moon in 7th shows you are emotionally very attached to him right now (Moon shows our emotions). Did this relationship start off mainly sexual and now your feelings have deepened as a result? The Moon is right on the 7th cusp, indicating your deeper feelings for him have begun very recently. Also, your significator (L1 - the Sun) being in Venus dignities indicates you are interested in exercising your "woman-stuff" (Venus as general significator of the "animal woman").

Yes, I'm emotionally attached to him. It didn't start of sexual - we were friends and he hurt me really bad. I started to get closer to him only very recently. We used to not even be able to speak to each other for months.
What is an "animal woman"? Lol... do you mean a dominant woman?

Also, does the square of my and his significators indicate that we're squabbling? Because there's quite a bit of friction.

Thank you for your kind reply. I appreciate it very much. [/quote]

I'm not a fan of "silent understanding of monogamy". Often men and women have different expectations in this arena... To save heartache, I find it's always prudent to express these things out loud, which helps avoid misunderstandings

The other woman is Jupiter. I chose Jupiter because it is in such a close aspect to Saturn. (Aspect --> contact.)

Venus is your sexual nature. I include her because this is a sexual relationship. Hence your sex drive has a bearing on the question!

Yes, a square aspect does indicate friction. However, this does not neccessarily mean break-up, just friction.

Your original question was "Will he leave me for another woman?" - well we've answered that now. We know that yes, he has recently been involved with someone else, but he is not going to leave you for her. She may come back at a later date and want him back (Jupiter is currently retrograde, but will turn direct in due course, possibly remaking the aspect - I haven't checked the emphemeris), but for the time being he is yours!

Good luck!

Dear Keren,

I know what you mean about "silent understandings". I feel that way too.. I am trying to find a time to actually talk with him - we aren't at that stage yet.
I wish we were though..

Could Jupiter be someone other that the woman I am curious about? I'm just wondering. (because the woman i am talking about doesn't seem to have had any relationship with him before).. his last love that i know of was some time last year, and even so I wasn't sure what was the real status of their relationship.

I checked an online ephemeris, Jupiter was about 18 degrees around beginning March this year - but during that time it seemed like nothing that I know of - so I am wondering if the aspects of Saturn and Jupiter needed to be tallied - for instance on 8 of March 2007, Saturn and Jupiter were trine by one degree.
edit: around beginning march he did seem to like someone very much - around the time period stated; but it wasn't the girl in question - that girl did not quite like him the same way though. So I'm wondering now - was I mistaken - too suspicious of the girl in question now?

The thing is me and him aren't having sexual relations yet, but it is a given sooner or later, if we continue on this path.

Thank you

spicav---

I was going through Bonatti on Horary translated Robert Hand and this passage seemed relevant in your case. The same is confirmed from traditional/persian stuff at my disposal. The significator of Quesited is Peregrine Saturn.

http://www.horary.com/guests/horaryrh.html

When the Significator of a Matter is a Malefic
And [there is] also another thing which sends fear into matters, such as if a planet which is the significator of a matter should be a malefic, and it is manifest that the matter ought to be perfected by a [square] aspect or by opposition, because the querent is afraid lest some trouble may happen to him from this matter; for this reason he may wish rather that the matter not be perfected than that it be perfected [under these circumstances]. But if the aspect is a trine or a sextile with reception, the querent will be safe; but if it is without reception, it will not be as bad as the querent feared, although it is not so properly safe as the querent might wish.(Bonatti--Robert Hand)

Hi all,

It is an interesting point that STJ brings up about Saturn. On page 195 of "The Horary Textbook", John Frawley makes an argument that basically says Lord 7 in the 1st will automatically be in its detriment, and that it shows love and vulnerability because of that love. He says in that case the detriment can be disregarded.

I am not sure about that, as Ive wondered if it could in fact mean more, that the quesited may hurt the querent in some way. You can love someone but still hurt them. Im not sure but I wanted to bring it up in case its appropriate to the chart here. (STJ, are you thinking it is showing more the querents fear of being hurt, or that Lord 7 Saturn is capable of hurting?)

I think the applying square to Saturn by the Sun shows you asking him directly if he is seeing someone. And as he is trine a dignified Jupiter rx in the 5th, perhaps he will tell you the truth about any sexual encounters he has or not had. Perhaps its sorting out the truth very soon? And that is why they are all such close aspects.

The moon is a significator for the querent a natural significator of women, but it is also Lord 12, I dont know if it is saying there is another secret woman throwing herself at him, or if it is just showing your fears, and your vulnerable heart loving him.

Have you tried looking for antiscions? A conjunction or opposition to an antiscion, or a house cusp placement can sometimes show something of a hidden nature.

Hope you get the answers soon.

Redshoes---

My less than three months experience with horary tells me that whenever there was Saturn as one of significator and even there was an application with Trine. The thing quesited was ahem ahem. Not that good. So, after all the nature of significator is important.

Peregrine Saturn in 1st (as L7) according to experts--they say that Quesited is more interested in Querent. But Saturn in 1st can also show this---

-The person represented by L7 is at your home.
-He wants to be at your home.
-Saturn is first is worries and delays.

Now, Keren says --and ofcourse she is using John book-- the Quesited love the Querent.

IMHO, Querent is the most eager (L1 Sun)
Sun receives Saturn in his House and Triplicity while Saturn doesnt give any reception. The fact is otherway around. The Querent love Quesited more.

The application is by Square aspect (from angles but from fixed houses)

-The Moon has not brought any virture. She was VOC.

-She applies to Sun--barely within moiety of its Orbs.

My finding was that Querent is intent on keeping this relationship on long term preferably Marriage. (Moon in 7th--Sun in 10th) and would nag and push the lazy Saturn a little bit . And there would be more frictions.

Anyway time is the judge.

In answer to question If Quesited was interested in any body else recently.... *No*

redshoes,

I am not sure about that, as Ive wondered if it could in fact mean more, that the quesited may hurt the querent in some way. You can love someone but still hurt them. Im not sure but I wanted to bring it up in case its appropriate to the chart here. (STJ, are you thinking it is showing more the querents fear of being hurt, or that Lord 7 Saturn is capable of hurting?)

That is quite true..interesting. The quesited is hurting me as of now, at least trying to.

I think the applying square to Saturn by the Sun shows you asking him directly if he is seeing someone. And as he is trine a dignified Jupiter rx in the 5th, perhaps he will tell you the truth about any sexual encounters he has or not had. Perhaps its sorting out the truth very soon? And that is why they are all such close aspects.

I do hope so! But I did not ask directly though.

The moon is a significator for the querent a natural significator of women, but it is also Lord 12, I dont know if it is saying there is another secret woman throwing herself at him, or if it is just showing your fears, and your vulnerable heart loving him.

Yes, that's what I'm wondering.

Have you tried looking for antiscions? A conjunction or opposition to an antiscion, or a house cusp placement can sometimes show something of a hidden nature.

Yes I will look for it.

STJ,

Peregrine Saturn in 1st (as L7) according to experts--they say that Quesited is more interested in Querent. But Saturn in 1st can also show this---

-The person represented by L7 is at your home.
-He wants to be at your home.
-Saturn is first is worries and delays.

Now, Keren says --and ofcourse she is using John book-- the Quesited love the Querent.

IMHO, Querent is the most eager (L1 Sun)
Sun receives Saturn in his House and Triplicity while Saturn doesnt give any reception. The fact is otherway around. The Querent love Quesited more.

That's an interesting observation. I am confused about that also. It seems right both ways by you and Keren. The thing is since I am asking the horary perhaps I am more interested. I receive him, and he is exalted in my sign.

My finding was that Querent is intent on keeping this relationship on long term preferably Marriage. (Moon in 7th--Sun in 10th) and would nag and push the lazy Saturn a little bit Laughing . And there would be more frictions.

Actually you're quite right there, I want this for long term. However, our 'relationship' has been quite long term already without proper results. But I honestly did not nag and push Saturn anymore, perhaps only in the beginning.. because I know Saturn can never be controlled (tried and tested).


There is some update though:
The quesited is privvy to game playing which frustrates the sun. Perhaps this is illustrated by the square? I discovered that the quesited wants to make me jealous, always dragging others into the picture to confuse me.
Perhaps Jupiter was in the turned 11th house, so Jupiter coming close might be of the person I am asking of, but is merely a friend?
And me and the quesited do not have proper communication channels open as of now, probably signified by the square aspect of the sun and saturn.

I have a feeling this relationship will continue for a long while

Anyway time is the judge.

yes.

spicav----

Well. One more thing. The fixed angles are indicative of circumstances which would not change. Stability in whatever is going on. Status Quo. However, Moon application is/was important.

Calculate for yourself. Which orb you are going to use. Lilly or Tajik.

----------Lilly-------Tajik (Al-Bairuni)

Sun----17----------15
Moon--12.30-------12
Saturn-10----------9
Jupiter-12----------9
Mars---7.30--------8
Venus--8-----------7
Mercury-7.30------7
Moon Aspects:-----
Separating

Out of Orb=OOO

Moon Trine Mercury----10.26 (Lilly=OOO-- Albiruni=OOO )
Moon Sextile Mars-----10.39(Lilly=OOO Albiruni=OOO )
Moon Trine Sun--------17.36(Lilly=OOO Albiruni=OOO )


Applying

Moon Sextile Jupiter----12.21(Lilly=OOO a difference of 0.09 Albiruni=OOO )
Moon Square Sun-------12.24(Lilly=Within Orb Albiruni=Within Orb )
Moon Opposition Saturn-12.42(Lilly=OOO Albiruni=OOO )

Now, we have to balance. Mixing Art with discretion. Though angles are fixed, Moon has not brought any virture and its only applying to Sun. It is minutes behind to apply to Jupiter. While Saturn is bit far.

Jupiter in turned 11th is either a person or a thing. If it is a person then it could be a friend or a mentor.

I had one interesting observation lately. Rx Jupiter in Sagittarius is not as honest but people cant catch him, because he has history of being honest. See, if that Jupiter which happens to be L7 friend is telling him tactics. You say that Saturn is creating some crafty situations. Maybe, Jupiter as a mentor is behind all this.

*Food for thought*---Maybe Saturn is doing it intentionally to hold you for long. After all Saturn is not a good planet to begin with and if you read Sue Ward article. Saturn devoid of essential dignity is not weak SAturn, but more malicious Saturn.


E&OE

Hi STJ,

I noted that Jupiter rx has just seperated from a square to the sun, does it mean anything?

Also, how are the orbs calculated? I do not quite understand what the orbs mean.

Since you indicated that the moon is important in this chart, does the moon seperating from venus hold any significance?

Also, I was wondering if uranus holds any significance, although I think not because Lilly uses ancient significators. I ask this because L7 is in aquarius (lord of uranus), and the quesited is pretty uranian, in a sense.

Jupiter could be a person or thing? I wonder what thing can jupiter represent? If Jupiter is a person, the person I am speaking of has a Sag ascendant. Probably it's related to this.

I had one interesting observation lately. Rx Jupiter in Sagittarius is not as honest but people cant catch him, because he has history of being honest. See, if that Jupiter which happens to be L7 friend is telling him tactics. You say that Saturn is creating some crafty situations. Maybe, Jupiter as a mentor is behind all this.

Yes, i believe so. It has been for some time, leaving me wondering why the quesited needs to resort to this.

*Food for thought*---Maybe Saturn is doing it intentionally to hold you for long. After all Saturn is not a good planet to begin with and if you read Sue Ward article. Saturn devoid of essential dignity is not weak SAturn, but more malicious Saturn.

Yes, malicious is what describes the quesited now. I guess he knows no other way. It's not particularly malicious, but i guess he tries to use jealousy and hurt to 'tie' the sun so to speak. But the thing I know is I *am* tied to him, no matter what tactics are used. In Magi astrology, we have 2 saturn clashes, and alot of cinderlla aspects. Probably what causes the 'love-hate' thing. Also, maybe the quesited is doing this in response to a perceived hurt by the querent .
also another explanation would be that saturn is not ready to commit as of now, and uses these tactics to put it on hold for later.
I have more placements in cardinal than he; he is much more mutable, and changeable.

Well. One more thing. The fixed angles are indicative of circumstances which would not change. Stability in whatever is going on. Status Quo.

Yep, it's a status quo.

spicav----

Moiety of orbs is calculated as under.

Suppose :Moon and Venus

Orbs

12.3+8=20.30/2=10.15


Moon is the transmitter of virtue of one planet to another planet. But in order for Moon to do any thing of consequence. It must be within moiety of its orb.


Now if Moon is separated more than 10.15 degrees from Venus than it is not effectively bringing any virtue from Venus. It answers the question. Moon is way separated from Venus. Which indicates No Venus contact.

Now if moon was not within moiety of orbs from planets she is separated than. It indicates that nothing much happened in past. Secondly she only applies to Sun (L1) within moiety of orbs.

So, Moon is effectively not doing any thing of consequence. Infact she is not applying to the cusp of 7th house, rather she is separating.

Jupiter is not in an aspect with Sun. So, it has not separated from any square from Sun. The aspects have to be within moiety of its orbs to be effective. We can not stretch them way behind.

If you prefer Magi astrology, then Saturn contacts are called HeartBreak or Divorce aspects. There is a subtle warning in this horary. Free Will. Do you two have Chiron aspects? These contacts would be important in long term relationships. (Magi speaking).

I don’t use Uranus or Outers in horary unless and until they are on an angle. He is acting like Uranus. Well, every person who is not listening to his/her partner looks like Uranus.

Technically speaking Saturn doesn’t feel comfortable in any relationship. At best a loner.

Precisely, Saturn is not ready for commitment.