Hi STJ,

Thank you for explaining moeity of orbs to me. However, I have not yet grasped the concept fully. It is still confusing. I will have to do some read-ups on it.

If you prefer Magi astrology, then Saturn contacts are called HeartBreak or Divorce aspects. There is a subtle warning in this horary. Free Will. Do you two have Chiron aspects? These contacts would be important in long term relationships. (Magi speaking).

Yes, that's right.. we have 2 heartbreak aspects.
There is a stellium of sun, saturn, venus and pluto in our individual charts which quincunx chiron... I could understand why this happens.

Technically speaking Saturn doesnt feel comfortable in any relationship. At best a loner.

Precisely, Saturn is not ready for commitment.

I guess this is so. However, some horaries I have constructed have me as saturn too, and he as the moon. Does the restricting loner influence then apply to me (the querent) too?

Thank you for your help

The difference between Natal and horary is that horary captures the moment (thought it covers a apace of time before and after the query) but it can not substitute the Natal, which encompasses the whole life.

There are pluses and minuses for both branches of astrology. However, i would say that Public interest more seems to be revolving around questions of horary nature.

It is a bad idea to cast horaries for yourself. You have said that some horaries showed....... It means that this was not the first horary bearing on this relationship. hummm. Well. if some horaries showed you as Saturn than for that particular moment you were the doubting Saturn.

Saturn is not only loner, he is suspicious, he is malicious, he is philosopher. I prefer the last one.


STJ

P.s I wanted to write something more about Magi. But suffice is to say that most of what they say appears to be flattering and optimistic. According to Magi interpretation i am the most sexiest, and most wealthiest and most famous. It is true. But on a very very minor scale

It seems to me that moon being l12 would relate to the secretiveness of trying to find out what the quesited has been doing without asking him directly. You are being secretive in trying to discern what he is doing without going to him. I also think that Saturn being in Leo is more meaningful than the sun being in Saturn's house. I think he does really like you but you are fearful of him even though you like him very much. He has more room for you you are more cautious.

Spica,

This chart is very similar to some I have drawn up, its raising the same questions, and its helping me learn.

I have similar thoughts to Labalance on the moon as both your significator and Lord 12.

Reading through all your feedback here, I wondered if Jupiter retrograde in the 5th house of fun, and in partile trine to Saturn [lord 7] could be simply game playing? He might be insecure and has resorted to game playing to test your feelings for him.

I am unsure how to read the receptions of who is most interested, I have always thought that the planet in your sign is asking for your reception, and that you as Lord of the house have the power to decide whether or not to give it to them, and that makes them vulnerable. Your significator applying to the questited by square is not giving that reception easily.

STJs points on reception are interesting, and I need to read more as I have based my learning on John Frawleys method and I follow Kerens reasoning. However, I know that by receiving him you give him "virtue". I find it hard to understand what Lilly means. Im not sure if that means you raise him up, or whether it means you are the one more keen. I will have to read up more on reception.

Something else this chart reminds me of is John Frawleys comment that "The planets are the actors in the drama of the chart" on page 4 of the Horary textbook, and it implies not to read everything into the nature of the planet that is significator. Im not sure as this is contradicted elsewhere, when we see the signifcator being used for descriptions. For example is he a little bit older than you, and does Saturn in major sun dignities describe his appearance.

Saturn is not retrograde in this chart, if it was I would be more sure that he is behaving badly. Even more so, he is not in the 12th house, where then Id be even more suspicious of his character and that he was carrying on behind your back.

I am thinking that his close link to retrograde Jupiter (a planet going against its own nature) is showing the game playing, or flirting as he might see it, as Jupiter is clearly in the 5th house of fun and games. It could also be a sexual partner, but if so, it seems right out in the open. Looking at receptions, you receive Jupiter by triplicity.

I think you should ask him outright, and tell him how this affects you. You are accidently dignified in the 10th, it seems you have power to do that, even with him in the 1st.

Redshoes--

With due respect to John Frawley, his idea on reception runs contrary to understanding of Traditional stuff. I have made a little bit research or speculation on this.

Frawley seems to borrow and expand on the idea that if L7 is in First House than Quesited loves more and If L1 is in seventh house than Querent love more.

This one is from Lilly p.317 (some one please decipher it for me)

Contrary to all the rules of the ancients, i have ever found, that when the Lord of the 7th hath been in the ascendant, the Querent hath loved most, and when the Lord of the Ascendant was in the 7th, the Quesited loved best

Perfection has been confused with Love. Quesited Lord in ascendant or Querent Lord in the house of quesited are arguments of perfection.

Hi STJ, what confused me about Lillys quote there, is that he begins with "contrary to all the rules of the ancients" it makes me wonder if Frawley, seeming to having the opposite viewpoint is in fact referring to the ancients. (I get confused reading Lilly, when he writes "ever" does he mean "every time" or "never")

thats why i asked the help. English not being my first language i thought first of all to clear that phrase of Lilly for my understanding.

One thing is for sure, Lilly had read more about ancients than Frawley did.

My guess is that he came across Lilly book and had same problems with the idea of receptions that i had, but if i had not the help of an article by Deborah, i would have been lost.

Saturn in Leo (the house of his detriment)

Saturn Loves Sun or (Frawley)
Sun receives Saturn in his house.(Lilly)

I prefer the second statement.

If the topic has been discussed in another thread. I would like to discuss it in tha tthread. Let me search.

I get confused reading Lilly, when he writes "ever" does he mean "every time" or "never"

Think of it as a shortened form of "forever"; it means "always"

Contrary to all the rules of the ancients, i have ever found, that when the Lord of the 7th hath been in the ascendant, the Querent hath loved most, and when the Lord of the Ascendant was in the 7th, the Quesited loved best

I may be wrong, but since this was dropped into a discussion of reception, I think there is a risk of different principles being confused. This is discussing the effect of emplacement, and is not really saying one thing or the other about reception. (STJ, for an in-depth discussion of the reception issue see http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=952 )

This quote is one place where I don?t find Lilly?s personal experience persuasive, BTW. Saturn (as the 7th ruler) in the 1st does suggest to me some interest or even some dependency from the quesited, but it is the querent?s planet that makes the application and the querent?s planet that recieves. I wouldn?t overlook the quote that STJ gave from Bonatus lightly. It seems that the best our querent?s significator has to look forward to is a square to a debilitated Saturn in her first house - hardly descriptive of joyful prospects.

One thing is for sure, Lilly had read more about ancients than Frawley did.

I think it balances out though.
Frawley had to read Lilly and beyond as well
Whereas Lilly didn't have to read Frawley (only louder)
I wish the ancients had Adobe !!

PD

Deb, in the link you posted you said this, "When a swifter planet applies to another, what we aim to see is the planet being applied to receiving the applying planet in some of its dignities. This shows the willingness to accept the influence (or the ?promise? of the contact). Where there is no reception from the weightier planet towards the one making the application, the promise may be rejected or there is a lack of recognition towards it. " So in the chart we are discussing the querant is applying to the quesited and the quesited is in reception to the querent, it seems to follow a positive outcome according to the above quote. Also, in the article on perfection on this site it says that a square coupled with reception means that a thing will come to pass with the use of much energy and enthusiasm.
I'm very confused!

The confusion people experience over this generally centres on the issue of who ?receives? who.

When a swifter planet applies to another, what we aim to see is the planet being applied to receiving the applying planet in some of its dignities.

The Sun is the swifter planet here, the one making the application. So what we ideally want to see is Saturn receiving the Sun in some of its [Saturn?s] dignities, to show its reception of the Sun?s interest. Saturn is in the Sun?s sign, so Saturn is received by the Sun (the Sun is tolerant to and accepting of planets in its own sign). But the Sun is in none of the dignities of Saturn, so Saturn does not receive the Sun. That?s not such a positive state of affairs for the querent, it gives the benefit to the quesited.

Also, in the article on perfection on this site it says that a square coupled with reception means that a thing will come to pass with the use of much energy and enthusiasm.

I can find you a whole variety of different statements from different authors, none of whom seem to be completely consistent in what this should mean. Bonatus, for example, will describe this as of no help in some areas of his text, and helpful in reducing the difficulties of the square in others. Even if Saturn received the Sun, Bonatus would have issues with the benefit it could convey when Saturn is in detriment.

As a general principle reception is expected to smooth the difficulties in an aspect, so if all else looks well we can be hopeful that reception will provide enough motivation to get over the difficulties. But what we have here is the Sun hoping to benefit from a square to a detrimented Saturn; it is not a mutual reception and the Sun is not being received. I would want to see some good back-up from the Moon to view that in any kind of promising light. Unfortunately we don?t have that either.

If the reception issue still confuses you, take some time to read the article at
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/reception.html .

Or for a quick clarification turn to p.220 of Christian Astrology, where it is very clear who receives who by Lilly?s comment that Venus in Aries is received by the Sun by exaltation (?received by the Sun? is the same as saying that the ?Sun receives ??)