I am sorry Keren, but cant help saying following.

It is so strange that we horary astrologers dis-regard the strictures of

-early or late ascendant as according to us, the chart is valid (and we have an explanation)

-Saturn falling in the 7th house.(and we have an explanation too)

First of all these strictures were not developed by Lilly. I have yet to see any one pointing out that Lilly analysed a question with an ascendant of 1 degree.

The strictures of early or late ascendant apart from too early or too late question also indicates that the person who asked the question was time passing, or testing an astrologer or lying.

I wonder what good could come in analysing an invlaid chart and that too in detail. One can loose confidence in analysing valid charts if he/she experiments on invalid chart (Saturn in 7th house...intercepted 7th Virgo ruler Mercury combust--bad for astrologer)

These early and late ascendants pop out repeatedly in two cases.

-When the astrologer is not working professionlly, the people would ask questions for free and they can for time pass, becuase they dont have to pay.

-When the astrologer who is working free is easily accessible. Or the astrologer believe that horary should answer any question whether it is a trifle or not.

P.s-- Hint=Has any body seen in that chart that the Querent had an abortion or MisCarriage some time ago

Tara - I usually follow John Frawley's methods. His view is that the sign boundary is just that, a boundary. A planet at the end of a sign is not in the next sign. I agree with this. It follows that therefore a planet cannot be in conjunction with one in the next sign, even if they are at 29 and 00 degrees respectively. Either they have recently been conjunct, or are about to be, but currently are not. I think it is logical to extend this distinction to the issue of house cusps. So, Venus is about to enter the 6th, but she is not there yet!

STJ - I see what you're saying about the strictures before judgement. And yes, we astrologers do like to pick and choose when to follow them
Why do you think she has lost a pregnancy in the past? Are you looking at Mars in Pisces which is in close aspect with the Moon and L5?

Hi Keren!---

Pick and choose

Not any particular rule. I just wondered on

-Early ascendant
-Intercepted houses 1-7 and intercepted 7 combust.
-the nature of question which has been posed within hours of the act..


Signs and houses are different. If a planet is at 29 degrees and 59 minutes of a particular sign it would be considered in that sign, but if we use regiomontanus houses and a planet is within 5 degrees of the cusp of the next house then it would be considered in the next house. I hope John Frawley uses the same method.

STJ - I can't agree with you on planets in a different sign from the cusp being considered in the next house. To my mind that is a direct contravention of the whole notion of a sign or house boundary. I will say that yes, a planet at the end of a house extends its influence into the next due to its orb. But this is an influence being extended, which I think is a subtly different circumstance from the planet being in the house, or within 5 degrees and in the same sign. Also, the 5th house in this case is very small (only 16 degrees or so!), in which case I would use the 5 degree rule with caution as 5 degrees is a proportionately larger area of the house. If you see what I mean.

Although, I have just realised I was inadvertently using Placidus houses. Whoops! Using Regiomontanus, I see how close Venus is to the 6th. Wow that is close! Now I see why you raised the point, Tara! I'm still not sure she's in the 6th though. But she's about to get there! Perhaps this shows the querent's "love nature" is about to retreat into the isolation of the 6th, hence she will not want to be "romantically involved" for a while now.

STJ - I still don't understand your reasoning for seeing a past loss. How are the intercepted signs in the 1/7 houses relevant? I'm not criticising here, I'm just really interested as to how you picked that up from the chart. Or are you using psychic powers? (That's cheating!) It's impressive that you can see that in the chart, because the answer is yes, she had an abortion 2/3 years ago. Please shed light on your insight!

Hi Karen,

I can?t draw up this chart easily to check out the specifics because I?m having problems getting my astrology software to work on my new computer (a warning for others thinking of investing in a new computer with windows vista). I think it is loose terminology to state that Venus is in the 6th when it is at the end of the 5th - however it is on the 6th house cusp and that has to be significant in terms of describing the influence of Venus don?t you think? Venus on the cusp of the 6th house offers a whole different perspective to a pregnancy chart than Venus (a natural significator for pregnancy) strengthened in the 5th house, its house of joy. I understand that John teaches this but I don?t know of any traditional author who applies the 5 degree orb for house cusps yet discounts it for planets out of sign. It doesn?t seem logical to me unless a whole-sign system is being used for the houses, though of course it?s your privilege to say that you personally prefer to work that way. But I am also wondering about the influence of Venus at 29 Gemini. The placement of a significator in the last degree of its sign is never particularly promising.
The early ascendant would put me off getting deeply involved in this chart. It would make me wonder whether this was a rash question following a rash act, much better resolved by the concerned party taking a pregnancy test. I can?t see her mind being fully put to rest until she does. However, I read with interest ?

Deb said,

I think it is loose terminology to state that Venus is in the 6th when it is at the end of the 5th

This particular Venus is at 29 Gemini with 6th cusp at 1 Cancer. What I came away from your course thinking is that a planet within 5 degrees of the next house is considered to be in that house. Now this is "loose terminology"???? (god forbid I should be loose with my terminology!)

Tara

Hi Deb!----

What specifically are the requirements of 5 degree cusp placements in the context of Regiomontanus Houses.

------------------------------

Hi Keren!----

I dont have any marked psychic abilities. I have high instinctual self preservation extra sensory perception but it has nothing to do with my deductions.

My basis for saying so were not based on hard and fast horary rules, however i can describe my chain of reasoning.

1-Use Regiomontanus Houses.
2-Early Ascendant and question asked within few hours.
3-Intercepted houses in 1-7 axis.
4-Saturn in 7th and intercepted 7th ruler combust--bad for judgement.
5-Saturn in exact sextile aspect with 5th house cusp.
6-Rx Jupiter (significator of wealth and children) in exact opposition aspect with 5th house cusp.
7-L5 Mercury separates from L1 Saturn with a square aspect

Tara, I wasn?t referring to your comment in particular, in fact I hadn?t noticed you had referred to the planet that way ? it is just something that we all do, myself included, talk about the planet being in the house when we really mean that its influence is there.

STJ, Lilly explains the rule on page 33 of Christian Astrology, where he writes that if a planet ?be within five degrees of the cusp of any house, his virtue shall be assigned to that house whose cusp he is nearest?, (and again on p.151).

There?s an older thread on this issue where it was raised and discussed at length, from several different perspectives. I think you?ll find that interesting and it?s probably best to continue discussion on the ?5 degree rule? there rather than in the middle of Keren?s post.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1506

Just to update you all - she informs me it is a "NO" as her period has come on time.

Which brings up once again the thorny issue of early Ascendants!!

I'm sticking to my initial view, which is that in some cases, an early Asc is descriptive. Whether this is a testimony for "This chart cannot be judged" or not depends on the specific question, circumstances and individual chart in question. I think the emphasis on "beware the late/early Asc" in traditional sources does, in great part, stem from the lack of computer software to draw up 100% accurate charts Therefore my opinion is that we should respect and acknowledge this guideline in our work, but not neccessarily follow it blindly and dismiss charts out of hand on this point alone.

Thanks all for your input.

Keren

Therefore my opinion is that we should respect and acknowledge this guideline in our work, but not neccessarily follow it blindly and dismiss charts out of hand on this point alone.

Dont mind, but cant help myself saying .

I have to see any body in this forum, who posts a chart with an early ascendant and says. Oops sorry, i made a mistake. If you dont take into heed the early ascendant and still want to analyse the chart, then why do you consider this stricture worthwhile. Just say that we/you dont believe in this stricture.

Ok, apart from early ascendant, can i note down this chart for my research. Can you add something about this chart which should be helpful for a student.



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What do you say to an early ascendant with planetary hour agreement? I say, if it looks like a duck ... if the chart seems clearly to address the question then the early ascendant is a warning to proceed cautiously with your judgment rather than necessarily a STOP sign. I don't ignore the Considerations but we were taught to see them as just that - considerations, rather than strictures. It's a yellow CAUTION sign rather than necessarily a red STOP sign. It may well be a STOP sign on the other hand and, as we were taught that the worst consideration of all is a late ascendant, I always decline to judge these. I have judged a couple of early ascendants and my experience told me that I should have proceeded more cautiously with my judgment in these cases rather than not judged them at all.

Still as Deb says these early/late ascendants don't tend to happen to her anymore so maybe it's the universe's way of saying we're not quite ready as astrologers yet to judge the question whereas another more experienced astrologer may be.

Then again, many of us got it right on this chart with its early ascendant.

Anyone know of any old threads on the topic of Considerations that might cast more light on the subject?

Tara

IMO, we get early or late ascendant cause of following reasons

-When the astrologer is not working professionlly, the people would ask questions for free and they can, for time pass, because they dont have to pay.

-When the astrologer who is working free is easily accessible. Or the astrologer believe that horary should answer any question whether it is a trifle or not.

In my opinion horary astrologer should not be working freely. S/he must charge. And if s/he wants to work freely he must not be easily accessible. The friends and relatives ask questions on whims and fancies.

The early ascendant in this question was itself an answer. BTW, i must say that i am impressed by the ability of members. Their analyses are/were wonderful and provide good learning material.