I've been trying to confirm and validate the rules for length of time when needed or shown in a horary chart. Could someone point me in the right direction to find the information? I have Cardinal rising and the significators in fixed signs 15.75 degrees from conjunct along with some other nice aspects. I was thinking with Cancer being long ascension, cardinal being fastest and fixed being longest it might be months. Would that be correct?

Thanks in advance,
Connie

Hi,

There's a John Frawley article on Skyscript you might find useful. The issue of timing has been raised before, you might want to look for the previous thread.

One point though - 15 degrees apart makes it sound like the significators are not in orb and so this would not show them coming together (they are too far apart). We can get round this if there is translation of light with the Moon or another planet, aspecting one and then the other. Again, these aspects should be in orb. Also, check the reception of your significators. With positive mutual reception, an outcome is much more likely than with neutral or negative reception.

Hope this helps.

Keren

The 15 degrees is between significators of the two involved, Moon and Saturn both being in the 1st. But the significators of the houses concerned in the question, Sun and Mars, are sextile by one degree applying with Moon having already sextiled Sun, still to trine Mars. This seemed like sufficient translation of light. But I thought I should use the significators of the two rather than the question to show when it would manifest.

I did check one thread I saw asking a when question but I didn't see anything. I'll check again and find the article you mentioned. Thank you.

Hi Kerenhappuch,

I read the article by John Frawley and it left me quite confused. He says, "Of their nature, angular houses equate with fixed signs and so indicate the slowest time unit. Cadent - as might be expected from a house that is literally 'falling' - gives the fastest; succedent the middle." Everything I've read puts cardinal and angular with the shortest amount of time. Even my software with the horary chart form says this.

AquarianEssence---


The angular houses 1-4-7-10 give the shortest time frame.


There appears to be contradiction in the article. Maybe some thing which is above my understanding.

Thank you, I thought so. I think I am satisfied with my findings.

It helps if you simply think about the principle that a planet has most strength in an angular house. Therefore, if it is perfecting something, the effects will happen more quickly. But if that angular planet is being pushed or put under pressure to do something it does not want to do by another, it has the strength to hold out longer ? and in those circumstances it relates to a longer span of time. As a general principle, the angular houses are the ones most usually associated with things happening quickly.

John explains his reasoning in The Real Astrology Applied p.59.

"...the fixed signs equate with the angular houses. In the timing of horary predictions, angular houses and fixed signs both show a slow time-unit. ... This equation is puzzling, as the angular houses 'ought' to equate with the cardinal signs.

"Our understanding is not helped by the modern chart-wheel. This naturally inclines us to see the houses in a progression from first to twelfth, with the result that we see the cadent houses as tagging along behind the succedents rather than in their true position as falling away from the angles. In a structural sense, as Morinus emphasises, the chart is built from four groups of three houses, each group being centred on an angle. The succedent house follows the angle and the cadent house falls away from it. The traditional square chart makes this much clearer.

"... The sense of solidity that gives us slow timing and reliability in statements is as real as is the same sense of solidity in the main beams of a roof, and in our chart this is located in the angular houses and the fixed signs."

It sounds very logical, doesn't it?

Deb--

Every planet when pushed against his/her will is not a happy worker.

From the John Article.

Within our reasonable time-frame for the question, fixed signs will give the longest time-unit, cardinal the shortest and mutable the middle one. That is the easy bit. The complication comes when we introduce the houses, as there is an in-built contradiction. Of their nature, angular houses equate with fixed signs and so indicate the slowest time unit. Cadent - as might be expected from a house that is literally 'falling' - gives the fastest; succedent the middle........Now for the contradiction: angular houses of their nature are slow. But a planet in an angular house has a good deal of accidental dignity. Accidental dignity increases the planet's power to act. If that planet wants to act, then, it is well able to do so, and is likely to act quickly. So angular houses are fast. The key is the word 'wants': the issue of volition. If things are unfolding of their nature, whatever is in an angular house will unfold slowly. If whatever or whomever the angular planet signifies is, within the context of the question, in a position to act, and if (and only if) the receptions indicate that it wants to act, it will act quickly. This inherent (apparent) contradiction is the reason for Lilly giving two apparently contradictory tables..----How to beat time--John Frawley (underlined by me)

The above reference is difficult to digest. He could have simply written that Angular house gives fastest time frame. . We are asking about significators in Angles, why would they not work if they are in aspect and applying. Keeping in view and extending it above. The planet is cadent is more lousy fellow, becuase he does not have the strenght, so any thing against his/her volition is also * A very big No*.

Apart from Lilly. This one reads as--

..Because Cardinal Sign and Angular house signify hours or days, common sign snd succedent house signify months and fixed signs and cadent house signify years, when they move from their places then years change to months, months to days and days to hours....(Ramooz-e-Sawal--Ayub Tajee p.p 144)

They question was whether Angular house signify the shortest or longest time frame in horary timing (excluding sign mixture)?

John reminds me of my former boss. I once proposed a scheme for enhancing the sales. He (boss) said that i was nuts, i was idiot, i can not think clearly, I was a liability. So, he criticised me for an hour and in the end he gave another option which in his idea would work and his option was the same which i gave in the first instance.

Honestly, I can't own and wear anything until I've tested and proved something. Looking at my chart and other's I know well enough to judge The angular houses aren't slow. I have fixed rising but I am a super fast mover. I have to slow myself down because i break dishes or pull over produce and my co-workers get mad. The later is due to cardinal in my mutable 6th. I have mutable in the fixed second house, I am not super slow their either, the mutable and quick Sun and Merucry adding speed. But the nature of the house dominates the nature of the sign.

So I'd have to say cardinal-angular fastest, succedent-fixed is slowest and cadent-mutable the middle.

The contradictions in traditional texts are resolved when you understand what they are describing. Angularity is the place of strongest virtue, so if an angular planet is making something happen, it will make it happen quickly; if it is resisting something, then even though we can see that it will happen, we know that the angular planet will hold out longer.

Lilly places the emphasis on planets in angular houses bringing change more quickly. See for example p.110 where he writes ?the two significators in moveable signs, Angular and swift in motion, doth hasten the time?. Or p.267 where he writes:

Moveable signs show days -Angles are equivalent to moveable signs
Common signs, weeks or months - Succedent to common signs
Fixed signs, months or years - Cadent to fixed signs

Then there are all the implied references, such as the principle that missing objects are found soon if their significators are in angular houses, but may never be found or will take a long time if they are in cadent house.

Where Lilly presents the alternative view, on p.175, it is where he is discussing the hopes of recovering a debt. The angularity of the quesited?s planet gives poor hopes to the applicant, because that powerful planet is unlikely to be rushed along (the querent has already been described as very inferior to the quesited). It is this element that John seems to be describing, but it leaves a false impression if people take that up as an overiding rule. Bonatti?s text also presents the same contradiction as Lilly?s does, but again it is clear that where he is expecting the angular planet to be the perfecting planet, it hastens the event.

We also need to consider other elements, such as whether the significator is moving more quickly than usual, the kind of planet that it is, and what quality of sign it is in. If the significator is Saturn, slow in course and in a fixed sign, you wouldn?t hold your breath, angular or not.