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House signifying pregnancy

1 by AquarianEssence
Do you always use the 5th to represent pregancy and the baby or would it be appropriate to use the 4th the questions specific to the pregnancy. I was thinking along this line because I look to the 4th house as that of the womb with Moon ruling there and the female cycles, which includes birth. If I looked to my 5th to describe my fertility and how my pregnancies went it would describe it near as well as my 4th. But the 5th describes my children, especially the 1st one well. Also, the 4th would describe the childs life before birth, being their 12th.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Connie

Re: House signifying pregnancy

2 by eon
AquarianEssence wrote:Do you always use the 5th to represent pregancy and the baby or would it be appropriate to use the 4th the questions specific to the pregnancy. I was thinking along this line because I look to the 4th house as that of the womb with Moon ruling there and the female cycles, which includes birth. If I looked to my 5th to describe my fertility and how my pregnancies went it would describe it near as well as my 4th. But the 5th describes my children, especially the 1st one well. Also, the 4th would describe the childs life before birth, being their 12th.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Connie
According to traditional rulers the 4th is the father though. Which is confusing for me because I was brought up on the modern system and I use the 4th for the mother.

Some guy on another forum jumped down my throat for saying that the Moon ruled the fourth house. It's traditionally ruled by Saturn. However if the 10th house is ruled by Mars, I don't see how it could begin to be the mother. Traditional astrology where concerns houses makes little sense to me, but I try not to say it aloud too often. Shannon's view: Mother/Moon for fourth - Father/Saturn for tenth. However I'm not an expert so don't take my word for it.

I would just use the 5th. If you're very keen on modern astrology then I don't see what the problem would be with using the 4th secondarily.
Peace, Love & Empathy,
Shannon Cunningham

3 by AquarianEssence
Thanks, eon. I did some searching through Deb's pages and see she is using the 5th for a pregnancy. It just seems that there should be a way to differentiate how the pregnancy will go for the mother as opposed to the condition of the baby or the baby itself. Asking how the pregnancy will go is different than asking how is the developement of the child proceeding. We know the baby is taken car of before the mother so using the same house for both the child and mother's condition doesn't really make sense to me. But, I'm sure Lily had never been pregnant.

4 by eon
AquarianEssence wrote:Thanks, eon. I did some searching through Deb's pages and see she is using the 5th for a pregnancy. It just seems that there should be a way to differentiate how the pregnancy will go for the mother as opposed to the condition of the baby or the baby itself. Asking how the pregnancy will go is different than asking how is the developement of the child proceeding. We know the baby is taken car of before the mother so using the same house for both the child and mother's condition doesn't really make sense to me. But, I'm sure Lily had never been pregnant.
I agree. The essence of the IC - beginnings, roots, comfort - it all sounds motherly. Beginnings, the child starts in the womb. Roots, the child is fed and cared for through the umbilical cord. Comfort, the baby is kept warm and safe inside the womb. If you want to, I really don't see the harm in using the IC for the mother. My sister-in-law is pregnant right now - I should check up on a horary for as well.

But wait - if the horary (I think you're doing a horary) is about the mother's health, would she not be signified by the 1st? Unless it's about both parties' health in which case I would decide before I created the chart which you would use and that would also probably be fine.
Peace, Love & Empathy,
Shannon Cunningham

6 by AquarianEssence
Here is the chart posted by someone on another forum http://forum.astro.com/cgi/forum.cgi?num=1185816356 The specific question was, "how will the pregnancy go?" My response is below in the thread. I took the 4th house as significator. Maybe I'm way off. Later I took a look at the conception chart and it was within a day of the Cancer new Moon with MR between Sun and Moon. The final aspect was conjunct Saturn rising which would fit the responsibility of a child.

Thank you Deb. More reading to do. :D

7 by ###
Forget the 4th house as mother, womb, pregnancy etc.! That?s confusing Cancer with the 4th house. For at least the first 1500 years of Western astrology signs were not equated with houses. The 4th is roots as in lineage and heritage. It is also associated with the late years and death.

If the mother is signified by the 1st house, then pregnancy (children) is signified by the 5th. If you want to know about the baby, the 5th house becomes the baby?s 1st. The child?s mother would be the 2nd. Technically, the 2nd house could be the child?s mother. But if the mother is the querent, then we would stick with the 1st. Others can correct me if I?m wrong here. It does get confusing. I suppose it all depends on what you?re asking. If the question is about the baby, then the 1st signifies the child.

Avoid sign = house at all costs! (Except for its traditional use in medical matters.) It will actually make astrology easier and more concise for you. For years I barely coped with the mush of 5th house, Leo, Sun ? and likewise around the chart. As I said, for many centuries of astrology the two were separate. Actually, that was the case for the most of Western astrology?s existence.

8 by eon
I don't think anyone has said here, I certainly haven't, that traditional astrology was not at one point in time, the only way for western astrology. However there is now modern(/Uranian) astrology. It doesn't apply for very many people, to horary, but it's much more neat and makes much more sense to many people. It also has worked just as well for me for my entire life and using traditional astrology my birth chart would make little to no sense. Using modern astrology it makes fine sense.

To each his own, for sure. Neither system can claim to be the one and only true western astrology system without being overbearing. We all need to respect each other's beliefs.

Where concerns horary I still know many people who use the sign/house system and many who don't. I refuse to personally ever use the 10th house for the mother though, as Mars and motherhood nor Capricorn and motherhood make any sense to me. There, in my book, must be some correlation.

You're, of course, right for yourself about traditional astrology, I just hope you'll remember that not all people follow that system.
Peace, Love & Empathy,
Shannon Cunningham

10 by eon
Kirk wrote:Many centuries of astrological tradition are only worth a paltry ?To each his own??
I certainly wouldn't mean to undermine traditional astrology. However I don't think "to each his own" could be paltry in any situation. Certainly someone not being a Catholic wouldn't undermine Catholicism or someone else's choice to be such, if you know what I mean. The important thing is that some people simply don't prefer that system. The 4th describes my father in no sense and the 10th describes my mother in no sense. The 4th describes my mother perfectly as the 5th does my father (or lack thereof, therefore the 10th is best for my career).

So if one was to force me to only believe the traditional house system I would believe much less in astrology.

So yes, to each his own. That belittles nothing. Traditional astrology is the foundation of modern and should be recognized as such - modern astrology is simply more relevant to my own life. That's all I've been saying here. I know that people who prefer traditional astrology are staunch in their beliefs, but there must be room for expansion and differing of opinion without it being shot down as worthless.

You know what I mean?

I, of course, have never implied that others should believe any less in different systems of astrology than the one I prefer. I am sad that others feel this way themselves. I simply take a little bit of offense when people say to "forget" the modern system or to never go by house/sign. Some people prefer this system, some don't.
Peace, Love & Empathy,
Shannon Cunningham

12 by Gunhilde
In the old days, pregnancy was seen as a product of the *father*; his semen or 'seed' was what took 'root' in the womb to produce a child. Because many ancient societies were both heavily patriarchal, and because there was little awareness of women's eggs as a part of the reproductive process, women were viewed as having nothing to do with pregnancy but the carrying of the seed that was planted by the man. Remnants of this are still seen in societies where women have no say or agency over their own sexuality, but are expected only to be a receptacle for the man. That, to some degree, may have something to do with the 4th being viewed as the father, and the 5th as 'the child of his root', so to speak. :wink:

Don't forget, however, that Capricorn is a feminine sign, and is concerned with structure; much of what mothering is about is providing security and structure to a child so that it can thrive. The 10th being used for the mother doesn't seem so strange to me; but then, I have children, and motherhood is very 10th house, in some ways.
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