Shannon (eon) wrote:

I refuse to personally ever use the 10th house for the mother though, as Mars and motherhood nor Capricorn and motherhood make any sense to me.

Hi Shannon,

I've talked to clients about their mothers using the 10th house, its sign, ruler and planets therein as her significators (in natal work) for the last 15 years or so and I've only once or twice had it fail to describe her well. Usually I get, "yes, yes, she was just like that." The 4th house has worked equally well to describe the father. So the proof for me is in the pudding of the astrological consulting room (if a room can be a pudding which I doubt).

But I'm very curious to know where you're getting the Mars connection with the 10th house, Shannon? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

Cheers,
Tara

Tara wrote:Shannon (eon) wrote:

I refuse to personally ever use the 10th house for the mother though, as Mars and motherhood nor Capricorn and motherhood make any sense to me.

Hi Shannon,

I've talked to clients about their mothers using the 10th house, its sign, ruler and planets therein as her significators (in natal work) for the last 15 years or so and I've only once or twice had it fail to describe her well. Usually I get, "yes, yes, she was just like that." The 4th house has worked equally well to describe the father. So the proof for me is in the pudding of the astrological consulting room (if a room can be a pudding which I doubt).

But I'm very curious to know where you're getting the Mars connection with the 10th house, Shannon? I don't think I've ever heard of that.

Cheers,
Tara

I guess I'm the third then!

Well, there's one website I know I can turn to for all things traditional astrology: Skyscript!
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h10.html#plan

It lists Capricorn and Mars as co-significators.

My 4th is in Leo - my mom's a dramatic, loving Sagittarian. My father was cold and abusive, and we left before I was born. The 5th is in Virgo and empty. I'm not planning on having my own children (adopting, Sun in 11th), so that's not a worry. My career is very important and well highlighted by my 10th.

Aquarius, nor the mixture of planets in my 10th describe my mother at all. The warm, loving Leo on the 4th describes my father not at all as well.

But hey, that's just me! Besides I haven't been having the greatest time communicating today, so maybe I'm coming across wrong.

Remember here, I'm not saying people shouldn't believe in traditional astrology, but rather people are saying here that everyone should only believe in traditional astrology. My point is simply that I think differing opinions should be tolerated, if not accepted. I have nothing but respect for you guys and for the system. I didn't mean to make a scene about it - something about message boards makes everything take forever to fully explain, right?

Gunhilde wrote:In the old days, pregnancy was seen as a product of the *father*; his semen or 'seed' was what took 'root' in the womb to produce a child. Because many ancient societies were both heavily patriarchal, and because there was little awareness of women's eggs as a part of the reproductive process, women were viewed as having nothing to do with pregnancy but the carrying of the seed that was planted by the man. Remnants of this are still seen in societies where women have no say or agency over their own sexuality, but are expected only to be a receptacle for the man. That, to some degree, may have something to do with the 4th being viewed as the father, and the 5th as 'the child of his root', so to speak.

Don't forget, however, that Capricorn is a feminine sign, and is concerned with structure; much of what mothering is about is providing security and structure to a child so that it can thrive. The 10th being used for the mother doesn't seem so strange to me; but then, I have children, and motherhood is very 10th house, in some ways.

I have thought about the sperm idea as well, but that lacks the home and comfort essence of the fourth. Your mother is literally your home for the first 9 months of your life. It seems appropriately interchangeable to me. The 10th could possibly better describe mothers nowadays (and I'm open to change here), but traditionally the breadwinner idea of the 10th would make little sense for a mother and still makes less sense than for the father even now. But then again many see Capricorn and Leo as the fathers. Capricorn the working, stern father and Leo the warm, supportive and playful father.

But again, this wasn't about "who's system is better"; it was simply about the fact that people are allowed to prefer the modern system, and should be able to do so without being made to feel as though they're "doing it wrong".

Remember here, I'm not saying people shouldn't believe in traditional astrology, but rather people are saying here that everyone should only believe in traditional astrology.

That's not what I'm saying.

Yes, I do think that traditional methods, such as keeping signs and houses separate, are the most useful and accurate. But what I?m really pushing for is educating ourselves in how astrology was used for centuries before it was nearly lost. What we have now since the 20th century is a reconstructed and embellished astrology. That may be a useful, functional and valid type of astrology, but it undoubtedly has many components that were added or incorrectly interpreted out of misunderstandings of the historical philosophical and methodological basis. To ignore all that and just say ?To each his own? really lights my fuse

This site is where you?ll find many of us traditionally-minded people. You?ll also find more opposition than you would at, say, astro.com. It?s only natural that you?ll meet resistance when you?re around so many others who have read Lilly, Al-Biruni, Bonatti, etc. We?re maybe a tougher crowd than the crowd at astro.com, where pretty much anything goes ? except traditional astrology, it seems. I?ve noticed in the forum section where traditional methods can be discussed they aren?t often mentioned. Skyscript is home.

Although it?s a valid discussion, the issue of whether the 10th or 4th signifies the mother is not relevant in horary, because if the mother is the querent then she is signified by the first house and only the first house. Applying natal thinking to horary does not allow the use of descriptive and predictive techniques ? for example, if you think of the 4th house as the root, and therefore significant for both the mother and the foetus, then there is no way to describe the relationship between them. The 5th house is the house of procreation, fertility and pregnancy, so it is used to signify the prospects of the pregnancy, the time of birth, sex of the unborn child, and so on. The relationship between the 1st and 5th house rulers is highly relevant to whether the pregnancy will be successful.

The basis of horary judgement is clear signification. It?s fine to apply your own technique if you are fully confident in what you are doing and can use it effectively, but I personally don?t think it is worth trying to reinvent the rules for something that has such a strong consensus of agreement, and the only astrologers that I have seen successfully innovate are those who first have a very strong understanding of traditional teachings.

On a few occasions I have predicted the time that a successful pregnancy occurred based on checking symbolism in a horary against future transits in the mother?s natal chart, and the relevant factor there was the time of positive connections to the fifth house. (For example, in one chart the time of conception was predicted from the transit of Jupiter to the 5th house cusp). Generally, I find that pregnancy charts, because they touch upon issues of life and death, are very potent charts and easily read. The traditional techniques are definitely reliable and worth studying IMO.

Oh, yeah Deb, I certainly wasn't saying I use the sign/house system in horary. I just have heard people completely disregard the entirety of modern astrology many times that I generally try to say "hey, let's be accepting" when I see it happen (or even when people completely disregard Vedic, or vise versa). I definitely didn't realize it was going to turn into such a big issue. Message boards have a way of doing that.

The thread that I referred to has turned unpleasant also, I'm afraid. But hopefully there will be learning involved for all.

I use what I've learned of traditional techniques, allowing for adjustments, where I see fit. For example, Uranus so clearly represents computers, the internet and modern technology to me I would always use him for the significator there. If the question involved evolutionary growth or generational issues, I would look at what the modern discoveries were doing. There are a few of us at astro.com that use traditional rules though.

It doesn't make sense to me that the 5th house is procreation when the genitals are in the 8th. Yes, the 5th represents what is created but not the creating act itself, IMO. I have a barren sign on the 5th and fertile on the 8th with 7 sons. Yes, the ruler of 5 and 8, Jupiter is in Cancer but square Neptune-Venus and conjunct Uranus. Saturn is in mutual reception with Mars in my 5th and I would think that would delay or hinder children also, if it is only dependent on the 5th. If the 8th rules what is under the surface and the private parts, I would think that includes the hidden fetus. The more I think about it and my observations, the more a toss up it is between Moon and the 8th ruling the womb. During the 1st trimester there are things set in place to block certain things the mother ingests from reaching the baby. How could that be supported if the same house rules both the pregnancy and the baby? That sounds like a natural square to me.

Huh... Interesting. That's going right into my mind's cache to use in the future. Very interesting.

I think we have to put things in context as well when using traditional astrology, what meant something ages ago probably won't mean the same thing today.
I'm personally leaning toward traditional.

Yes, but AquarianEssence, you are still referring to natal astrology, which is an entirely different kettle of fish from horary. And eon, the 10th doesn't describe your mother physically, necessarily; what it describes is the 'Mother' archetype and *your* perspective. Planets in the 10th are about 'issues'; maybe you don't have any; maybe you just haven't discovered you have them yet!

The 5th, in horary, works perfectly for all questions regarding pregancy; it always has worked well, and if it ain't broke, why go to the trouble of reinventing the wheel?

GH

Hi Connie,

One thing I don?t understand from your post is how the 5th cusp can be in a barren sign when its ruler is Jupiter in Cancer.

The thread that I referred to has turned unpleasant also, I'm afraid. But hopefully there will be learning involved for all.

The link on the other thread demonstrates a problem with these charts and why I?m loathe to comment. The querent asked ?will my pregnancy go well?? and a horary astrologer replied that the indications do not look easy. This met with resentment that he negatively affected a worrying pregnant mother, and there were some implications that those who gave positive answers were the ones with the ?good hearts?. I agree that it is unwise to give a negative response without very careful consideration to what is being said and why ? but on the other hand, why did the newly pregnant woman feel compelled to ask that question soon after the confirmation of her ?good news?, and why on a public forum? People should give thought to what they are asking, and where and how they invite other people to comment on their sensitive issues. If the end result is that everyone agrees that ?positive thinking? is best, could she not just have exercised some trust and positive thinking in the first place?

Eon, you wrote: "hey, let's be accepting"
Have you actually seen the discussions that go on here, about whether ?conjuncting? or ?conjoining? is correct ?

Hi, Deb,

I meant that the sign on the cusp is barren, Sag. Yes, the ruler is quite fertile as is my Scorpio Moon, 7 babies as proof.

As for conjuncting and conjoining, my spell checker can't even recognize dispositor and it isn't even in my collegiate dictionary. Disposit is though.

Did you look at the chart in that thread long enough to have an opinion as to her answer on how her pregnancy will go?

I didn't look at the chart, sorry. (I can't read those on-screen charts. I have to redraw them in my own familiar style). Even if I did I've already explained I would be loathe to comment. But just to reassure you I truly didn't, so I have no idea whether the suggestion of problems was legitimate or not. Personally, I would need some convincing that the question was radical.

I meant that the sign on the cusp is barren, Sag.

I'm not sure where you have heard that but Sagittarius is far from barren. On p.566 of Christian Astrology, Lilly describes Sagittarius as 'Ever conceived fruitfull, because the house of Jupiter'.

You say you have Jupiter in Cancer on the square of Neptune-Venus (highly fertile) and conjunct Uranus (dramatically so). Yes, together with your Scorpio Moon you obviously have great indications of fertility. Good luck to you. One day those babies are going to turn into teenagers. I hope you don't have a nervous disposition