I would guess this is a large, engaging, critical and kinky collector who was deceptively methodical.

Astrology is too much like homework. Especially ancient astrology. I had really wanted to give a wholly traditional interpretation for this chart, straight from Maternus' books of the Mathesis. I read Maternus as I go to bed probably 2-3 nights a week, so there is progress. The only problem is no matter how much he talks about some of the more daunting procedures such as Antiscia, Empty and Full degrees, etc., he doesn't rank them in order of importance when interpreting the nativity. Do we start with the Antiscia? The Moon's position 3 days after the birth? Because he states with authority that all of men's lives can be judged wholly by these techniques, but what if one is favourable and the other unfavourable? It's a lot of work! So thats why I'm not going to do it this time. I guess I'll just fall back on my general knowledge of astrology, have Tom argue with me about Uranus, and see if I can learn something from my mistakes.




Lets start with that beneficial Jupiter conjunct the ASC. I don't know about Almutens but that is a very powerful piece of this nativity. It is out of sect, so its benevolence is probably slightly lessened, but being in it own sign and almost on the ASC gives it incredible force. I would be surprised if this person wasn't seen as fair and forthright, generous, good natured, and gregarious. I'd also say that this person is "lucky" in the sense that this person seems blessed by good fortune. I've noticed that Jupiter in the first house possibly brings some type of eminence, with it in its own sign, I'd say this person was famous early.

If we think about transits for a moment, we understand that every aspect to Jupiter by a transiting planet will have a effect more profound than if Jupiter were in a less important house. Not only is it on the ASC, but it is in its own sign meaning that it is able to act by its own authority. It doesn't have to check in with other planets to see if it can act. So anything aspecting this Lord Jupiter by transit will have a great amount of power, and there really isn't such a thing as a bad transit to natal Jupiter.

Thats my justification for saying that I think the natives life probably moved rapidly, with constant fortunate developments until they were accelerated into a position of eminence appropriate to Jupiter in Sag.

Jupiter makes an important aspect to another dignified planet, the Moon in Virgo conjunct the MC. Moon in Virgo creates an intelligent person, and on the MC I'd say this person ability to fix things, and create order out of chaos was on public display. Along with the square from Jupiter, this person might have promised to "fix" more than they could and might have come up short on occasion.

The Moon is trine to the Sun in Capricorn, but we shouldn't hold that against him. This indicates a stable personality, and no major internal struggles. This person was probably seen to be balanced and trustworthy. Except on occasion promising more than they could deliver.

After thinking a little bit about Jupiter square Moon, I was pondering if it could mean that the person emotions could be larger than life, but Moon in Virgo is quite dignified, and doesn't often show emotion, and in some cases the emotions may become almost logical, in which case they arent really emotions at all. With no hard aspects to the Moon from Mars I ruled out a temper problem.

In fact, Mars works well in this chart, positively aspecting both the Sun and Moon, giving vitality and emotional strength. Mars in Scorpio gives a powerful drive and deep reserves of energy. Think Pluto.

Venus in Aquarius to me doesn't necessarily indicate unusual sexual behavior, I would look for a hard aspects to Mars, or more modernly Neptune or Uranus. In this case I'd say that this person was quite detached and unemotional in their "venusian" expression, more closely resembling its traditional ruler Saturn, than crazy Uranus. This is illustrated further in the chart by Gemini ruling the DSC, indicating that this person relates to committed others in a intellectual way.

Traditionally, Mars and Venus square is an aspect of lustful desire. These people are really good in bed. They also enjoy the carnal act more than most, to the point where it interferes and creates problems in their life.
However, both Mars and Venus are not in important houses, so it is not that apparent in the natives life. But whether we know it or not, astrology says this person liked sex. A lot.

Enough fun and games! We're going to go straight to my new hero, Gauquelin. So, if these statistics are only accurate in cases of eminence, and Jupiter and the Moon and both in plus zones, and this person was not born by caesarian section, this person is a:

Writer

or an Actor.

But I think its the secret astrological life of Mother Teresa.

Thanks Tom!

Ok, I just looked up the chart and Tom has some explaining to do.

Saturn return writes:

Ok, I just looked up the chart and Tom has some explaining to do.

Tom has some explaining to do? I told you in the first post it was a bit different. Check out the fixed stars. A lot of what you noted is applicable, but you dealt almost exclusively with aspects, try other things as well. Transits present a problem because if I reveal the year we might find significant transits, then I might inadvertently give away the native's identity. For example if I said check out the transits for the summer of 1972 when we were discussing Bobby Fischer's chart, it would have been a giveaway. The same is true for solar returns. But directions and progressions might be revealing.

For the record, it is true in most of these mystery charts that I don't work with the astrology until after the chart is put up, and I've written the post that reveals the name well before the last post is up. In this case I checked out the chart a little before posting, and saw a few things I hope people would pick up. I pick people who interest me and that have characteristics that might be spotted in a blind reading. I don't always succeed perhaps because I know what to look for while the readers don't - advantage me.

I'll give you and everyone a hint. This time I looked for and found a chart of a person involved in something that is not so cut and dry, like a great athlete or evil serial killer. We know what Ted Bundy was and the idea was to see if we could see things in his chart that demonstrate the evil. Jimmy Connors was a great athlete with personality difficulties, at least on court, so we try to see if those are present. This guy is not as easy to peg, so what is in his chart?

I hope this didn't ruin your day.

Tom

Haha Tom, only you could ruin my day.

I looked at the chart again as well as what some of the others have said in this thread and am now able to connect the dots a bit better. It is all there, I just didn't look at the chart closely enough, or once again, I didn't know what to look for first.

Admittedly I do look at aspects and planet positions first. I need to work on depositors and following the chain through the houses.

Deb wrote:

Moon is elevated on the MC. It rules the 8th house and is separating from a sextile of Mars (which is in and rules the 12th house), and then applies to the trine of Mercury which is in the 2nd and rules the 7th and 10th. He looks to be very cunning, ingenious, probably quite ruthless; marked by enemies or adversity but able to rise above it.

Will you please elaborate a bit more on how you came to your conclusion?

Why, is it anywhere near the mark? (she asks, desperate for feedback). I give up with Tom?s clues, it freaks me out trying to figure out what he?s talking about and where the real clue is. I?m starting to wonder if this is not a human being at all, but something like a book launch.

Anyway, sorry to say, that was the elaboration

The first thing I look at in any chart is a planet on an angle and the Moon. Moon on the MC brings a rise in status or fame. Looking at the house that the Moon rules should say more about the kind of activity the Moon relates to. It rules the 8th house ? why?s that? Did he murder his mother or something? Using a combination of common sense applied to Tom's clues, I scrapped that, but there seems to be something destructive about him, and yet he has Jupiter rising and the Moon?s next aspect is a positive one. So was he successful at being in some way destructive? I know that this isn?t Lucky Luciano, but that?s the kind of theme I am thinking of. Maybe a successful gangster.

More description: the Moon is on the MC in Virgo, a Mercury-ruled sign, and applying to the trine of its own dispositor. So Mercurial traits should figure strongly in his public profile. And just as the Moon?s next aspect is important, its last aspect is important too, because it is translating between these two planets, and the sextile to Mars is very close. Mars and Mercury are the two planets that naturally signify thieves, except Mars is typically the smash and grab type of thief and Mercury is the con artist or the light fingered pick-pocket (someone who thinks and acts quickly). Hence this ?Mercurial theme? has a 12th house, Mars in Scorpio, 12th house ring to it.

He looks to be very cunning, ingenious, probably quite ruthless; marked by enemies or adversity but able to rise above it.

So ?ingenious? because of Mercury, but ?cunning? and ?probably quite ruthless? because of the Mars in Scorpio, 12th house undertone; ?marked by enemies or adversity? because the Moon rules the 8th house and is translating between Mars (in the house of secret enemies) and Mercury (which rules the house of open enemies); ?but able to rise above it? because he has Jupiter rising on the ascendant and strong in its house of dignity, with the Moon making a positive aspect to its dispositor in the 2nd house (so I also thought he would have made good money, especially with the Sun on the 2nd cusp). My sister has Jupiter rising and she is my subconscious archetype for everyone else who has this. She has had more than her fair share of ups and downs, and both have been dramatic, but there is always that tendency to swing back and surface on top.

So that's basically all I noticed before but in a wordier version. If you now tell me that you only wanted me to elaborate because it was so hopelessly wrong, I will scream with frustration.

PS ? the fixed stars that Tom mentioned emphasise the Mars theme further; so some kind of gangster-like thug who is light fingered and cunning. Or a quick thinking soldier. Maybe an athlete who uses these qualities but had a hard life? Or a murderer, ? or a book launch ?? Argh, I give up!

Mars in Scorpio is strong willed and determined, but here it is in his 12th where its quality may have worked against him or to his disadvantage and led this this man allowing his self undoing. Jovial, good natured and extravigant Jupiter he may have allowed this to happen. Mars in the 12th house, cadent and fixed is unwilling to change and very determined in its purpose and willful. Mars in his chart is the ruler of his fifth (children?) and at the same time enemies and self undoing.

In the fifth house he has Chiron in exact Quincunx to Mars. This would indicate an area of his life that is difficult to deal with or needs constant compromise and adjustment. It is also an aspect that is costly in some way. Mars being in the 12th may have been working in secret to this man's undoing. Also, the ruler of his money 2nd, is Saturn which is deposited by Mars who is strong in its own sign in this man's 12th, the 8th house from his fifth. Maybe he had a child or children that worked against him to take over his finances?

Also, he has the Part of Mis Fortune (being that it is in Pisces) in the end of the matter fourth house. Uranus of sudden change and opportunity is moving in towards a conjunction to it and may have moved in to take his fortune away when the time was right.

Deb wrote:

Looking at the house that the Moon rules should say more about the kind of activity the Moon relates to. It rules the 8th house ? why?s that? Did he murder his mother or something?

No, he did not murder his mother but you?ve hit all the right notes.

More description: the Moon is on the MC in Virgo, a Mercury-ruled sign, and applying to the trine of its own dispositor. So Mercurial traits should figure strongly in his public profile.

And Mercury rules ??

So ?ingenious? because of Mercury, but ?cunning? and ?probably quite ruthless? because of the Mars in Scorpio, 12th house undertone; ?marked by enemies or adversity? because the Moon rules the 8th house and is translating between Mars (in the house of secret enemies) and Mercury (which rules the house of open enemies); ?but able to rise above it? because he has Jupiter rising on the ascendant and strong in its house of dignity, with the Moon making a positive aspect to its dispositor in the 2nd house (so I also thought he would have made good money, especially with the Sun on the 2nd cusp).

Mercury rules 7, the house of open enemies but also the house of ?? He did make good money, but that is not essential information for us.

My sister has Jupiter rising and she is my subconscious archetype for everyone else who has this. She has had more than her fair share of ups and downs, and both have been dramatic

,

Heh.

RC wrote

Mars in Scorpio is strong willed and determined, but here it is in his 12th where its quality may have worked against him or to his disadvantage and led this man allowing his self-undoing. Jovial, good natured and extravagant Jupiter he may have allowed this to happen. Mars in the 12th house, cadent and fixed is unwilling to change and very determined in its purpose and willful. Mars in his chart is the ruler of his fifth (children?) and at the same time enemies and self-undoing.

One of the more difficult aspects of delineation is that there are so few planets that mean so many things. While Mars in Scorpio can mean ?strong willed,? a tradtionalist would look for a connection to the ASC if Mars is not the significator of the manners. Morin liked to use the 12th house for illness. Most use it for secrets, hidden things and self-undoing. The challenge is to determine just what Mars means in this case. Traditional astrolgers are less likely to use everything in the chart as indicative of the personality. On the other hand Mars is in the triplicity of the Moon (and her fall) and is connected to the Moon via a tight sextile aspect. Therefore I would accept the idea that in this case Mars indicates strong will.

In the fifth house he has Chiron in exact Quincunx to Mars

Uhhhhhh what? You?re new. This is the traditional forum and we don?t use the outer planets as sign rulers or use Chiron, asteroids etc. Personally I don?t care for the use of minor aspects, but that?s just me. Kepler liked them so they are not exactly anti-tradition. Lilly used a quincunx once I think. So use the quincunx if you think you can make a case, but save Chiron for the Natal Forum. You might want to take a look at the Announcment that gives te general thrust of the forum

Mars being in the 12th may have been working in secret to this man's undoing.

Now this is good and the sort of thing that sets this chart apart. I?ve already stated that he gets undone, whether it was self undoing or the fates is the question. Mars strong in a fixed sign in the 12th has the ring of inevitability about it. I?m not saying definitively that that is the case, but Mars makes for interesting testimony here.

Also, the ruler of his money 2nd, is Saturn which is deposited by Mars who is strong in its own sign in this man's 12th, the 8th house from his fifth. Maybe he had a child or children that worked against him to take over his finances?

Right Church wrong pew. I?ll toss another major hint. His son did take over his entire estate, but that had nothing to do with his downfall. It is closer to a result of the downfall.

Also, he has the Part of Mis Fortune (being that it is in Pisces) in the end of the matter fourth house. Uranus of sudden change and opportunity is moving in towards a conjunction to it and may have moved in to take his fortune away when the time was right

Pisces is a fertile sign ruled by a powerful Jupiter with whom it is in aspect by sign. Being angular, I?d say this was anything but unfortunate. Let us also recall that, although he is a bit player in the events we?ll discuss, his father was a powerful figure in his life and the father is shown by the 4th and its ruler.

Tom

Ok. Sorry 'bout that. I took the outer planets out of my wheel. I know they didn't use them back then but didn't know we were limited to not using them ourselves.

I was torn with the last post as to whether it was his children or some other fifth house matter that was a cause here, such as speculation. Now that you've confirmed his Son, did take over his estate but that it wasn't the cause rather a result of what happened, I'm thinking again that perhaps he speculated in the markets. (I'll do without comments on Chiron being in the fifth.)

The moon, ruler of the 8th, end of matter for the 5th house of speculation is separating from the ruler of his 5th. The ruler of the 5th Mars is strong by sign but eventually the energy is burned out in the 12th and taken away by the moon's separating aspect. Moon is also ruler of the public opponent's money. (He may have been on the wrong side of some buy/sell arrangement where his opponent won out in the end)

The Moon being ruler of 8th and the end of matter for the 5th, is in a separating aspect to his Mars 5th in his 12th. And Mars is depositor of Saturn, ruler of his 2nd but Saturn Squares his 2nd. The Sun, his ruler is also separating from a Square to Saturn in the second. He therefore has two separating aspects that indicate a taking away of finances is possible from speculation or bad investment.

Although it looks as though money came easily in life with his jupiter in the first which also brought luck and Venus and Mercury rulers of his career and money earned from career, conjoining in the 2nd, the speculation eventually could be his undoing and downfall. Jupiter tends to make one overly optimistic.

So perhaps some bad speculation or investments were the reason for it to all come crashing down?

RC

I was thinking along the same lines as RC so...

Ruler of 10th conjunct Venus in the 2nd, was he a banker? Venus rules 6th and 11th , did he manage group funds, labour funds, mutual funds of some sort? Mars, ruler of 5th and 12th in 12th, tendency towards secret speculations? Saturn, ruler of 2nd and 3rd in 11th, again emphasis on money from groups, emphasis on communication? Moon on MC ruler of 8th, other peoples money, again...