Question about collection of light:

Example: Moon is opposing venus (Moon 7:41 AQU) (Venus 20:00 Leo retro).
Moon will move in to conjoin Neptune (20:17 AQU retro) before she leaves her sign.

Venus and Neptune here, are in opposition nearly exact but separating.

Would Neptune be considered to be "collecting the light" for Moon and Venus since the aspect between Neptune and Venus, tho exact, is separating?

RC

The short answer is: No, especially not in traditional astrology, as we would mostly ignore Neptune.

Neptune wouldn't collect in this case, anyhow, as the Moon first sextiles Jupiter at 10 deg Sadge (assuming of course that you are referring to a 'current' chart), before touching on Venus. So, barring any other planets in the way, it would be *Jupiter* collecting, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't think of Neptune being able to collect anything, anyhow. More like 'diffuse'!

Cheers,
GH

Gunhilde wrote:
Neptune wouldn't collect in this case, anyhow, as the Moon first sextiles Jupiter at 10 deg Sadge (assuming of course that you are referring to a 'current' chart), before touching on Venus. So, barring any other planets in the way, it would be *Jupiter* collecting, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't think of Neptune being able to collect anything, anyhow. More like 'diffuse'!

Cheers,
GH

Hi Gunhilde:

Time of chart I was looking at was 8:10 AM 8/26/07. EDT

I used the wrong term here. I suppose the question should have been whether this was technically a "translation of light" by moon between venus and neptune. I wondered about this because of the fact that they are still in same degree in their opposition tho separating.

Around 9:30 PM, on Aug. 25th, the opposition between Venus and Neptune was exact. After a little after 10 PM, the aspect began separating so aspect became a *separating* opposition and was such at time of casting of chart tho still in same degree opposing.

Before leaving its sign of Aquarius, the moon will oppose venus, then conjoin Neptune. So even tho the Venus/Neptune opposition is separating, the moon aspects one, then the other. But here we're not talking of bringing two significators back together however as this is an opposition.

Translating the light occurrs when two significators are separating from aspect so that they are out of contact and then only a 3rd planet can reunite them by applying to each in turn. Here, that would be the moon.

However since this is an opposition aspect, I was wondering about the effect of such. Venus and Neptune are opposing each other, an aspect which shows the two people or things are against coming together or happening, then moon comes in and aspects both while they are still in opposition aspect but *separating*.

Does that just continue the effect of the opposition between the planets or is that bringing these two significators *together* in some way?

Gunhilde wrote: So, barring any other planets in the way, it would be *Jupiter* collecting, wouldn't it?

(Venus is applying to a trine to jupiter but it never completes that aspect and starts to move away from the trine when it turns direct so not significant here for what I was looking at.)

Thanks
RC

I still don't think so, because the Moon first aspects Jupiter, and so impedes the collection of light. The Moon is at 7 degrees; the next aspect it makes, full stop, is a sextile to Jupiter, so regardless of the fact that Venus and Neptune are at 20-degrees something, the Moon applies to Jupiter first, before it gets anywhere near Venus. This is a sort of prohibition. In a chart you've done now, this has to be taken into consideration. In other words, one can't ignore imminent aspects in order to find another aspect 'later on'.

However, if Jupiter weren't in the way, then yes, the Moon *could* translate light from one planet to the other.

Cheers,
GH

Gunhilde wrote:I still don't think so, because the Moon first aspects Jupiter, and so impedes the collection of light. The Moon is at 7 degrees; the next aspect it makes, full stop, is a sextile to Jupiter, so regardless of the fact that Venus and Neptune are at 20-degrees something, the Moon applies to Jupiter first, before it gets anywhere near Venus. This is a sort of prohibition. \
Cheers,
GH

I'm glad you brought this to my attention. I am unclear on this.

When reading about the various prohibitions as described in Graeme Tobyn's article on this website, I had wondered about this very thing.
I had understood from Ivy Jacobson Goldstein that in a horary chart, the moon is allowed every aspect she makes before leaving her sign. Then in reading about prohibitions, I had some trouble reconciling these two principals. Since the moon will often make many aspects, there will very often be some type of prohibition, no? Ivy also seemed to suggest that the moon's last aspects are sometimes more controlling in the ultimate outcome of a matter.

RC

Hi there,

Well, I'm no expert on Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson, for sure, but the way I learned it was that any planet that 'gets in the way' of another applying aspect/translation/collection is a prohibitor/frustrator (there are several threads about this somewhere on here, including a similar question from me! ). So if you are looking for the Moon to help perfect or bring back to perfection some separating aspect, but the Moon touches something else first, then that perfection is denied. Because Jupiter has so much dignity nowdays this might not be a bad thing, necessarily, and so might not be a true 'prohibition', but it would take looking at the chart to see what Jupiter represents. In the question I had, it was a Leo Moon applying to conjunct Saturn, but the Moon trined Jupiter first (this was also when Jupiter was still in orb for trining Saturn). So Jupiter didn't exactly 'deny' the aspect between the Moon and Saturn; in my particular question it sort of acted as a rocket booster as it collected the trine from the Moon first, then the Moon brought that trine to Saturn via the conjuction.

As I also learned it, we're not 'supposed' to account for every aspect a planet makes within a certain timeframe before leavinga sign (i.e. first it sextiles Jupiter and then it squares Saturn and then it opposes Neptune and then yay! I'll win the lottery). So first it sextiles Jupiter and then immediately squares Saturn, and that's about as far as you can take it, unless the rest of the planets are totally relevant to the question. But I digress...and may not be correct on this, either!

GH

Gunhilde wrote:Hi there,

Well, I'm no expert on Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson, for sure, but the way I learned it was that any planet that 'gets in the way' of another applying aspect/translation/collection is a prohibitor/frustrator ....

As I also learned it, we're not 'supposed' to account for every aspect a planet makes within a certain timeframe before leavinga sign (i.e. first it sextiles Jupiter and then it squares Saturn and then it opposes Neptune and then yay! I'll win the lottery). So first it sextiles Jupiter and then immediately squares Saturn, and that's about as far as you can take it, unless the rest of the planets are totally relevant to the question. But I digress...and may not be correct on this, either!

GH

Hi Gunhilde:

I don't want to leave the wrong impression as to what Ivy had stated so to clarify, she didn't say you had to "account" for every aspect. She said moon was "allowed" every aspect which *I* took to mean you would look for all aspects she may make regarding your question. Some of the aspects might not be relevant to the question.

I wasn't sure if the rules about prohibition would apply equally to the moon as co-significator being that she often makes many aspects - or that if the moon is an exception to the rule regarding prohibition just as she is an exception to the rule of only using applying aspects within orb at the time of question. (We're allowed to look at all her aspects where we look only at aspects within orb of the other planets.)

It seems to me, that to allow that exception for the moon regarding aspects, while at the same time applying the rules about prohibition equally to moon, seem contrary to each other. The articles I have read thus far have not addressed this issue and speak generally of the other planets and "significators".

Perhaps as I progress in my reading materials I will come across this point. I will look for the thread you mentioned. If you (or anyone else) can cite any author's or materials on this I would appreciate it.

Thanks for addressing this as I had been wondering about it. By the way, how did that question you refer to turn out or is it still not yet resolved yet?

RC

Hi RC,

I understand your confusion, I've experienced it myself.

In my mind, when I look to the Moon I understand that she represents the querent as co-ruler, but she also represents events that will come to pass on the path to perfection of question. She is the motion of the ocean. When the Moon encounters difficult aspects without strong reception, chances are that motion will come to grinding halt. If she is coming to the square of Mars or the opposition of Saturn, these represent huge obstacles that most likely cannot be overcome. So we have prohibition and/or frustration.

The dignity of the Moon gives a clue as to whether these things can be surmounted. In some ways, she is an exception because she performs so many roles. If in the chart she clearly stands for the querent, the prohibition and frustration may be more apt to describe the querent's situation. If she's events then she's letting us know the likely road the matter will take. At times she is a person as well. So she can be all three. You have to try to figure out what's going on with her.

I did a chart recently for a woman who asked if children were in her future and if so under what circumstances? She wanted her children to come from marriage. She had had a miscarriage one year prior with a man she was still dating but was uncertain about.

In the chart, the sig of the child was in the 7H, Mars in Gemini right on the DSC. Her sig was in the ASC Jupiter in SAG applying opposite in reception. The Moon in Libra was translating from the 11H, separating trine 1 degree form the child's sig in the 7H and applying sextile to her sig in the ASC perfecting in 2.5 degrees.

The Moon here is instructive. The 1 degree separation was the miscarriage of a year ago and is indicating that the qurent is likely to be in the family way in 2 1/2 years. In addition that Moon is in Libra, querent is likely to married or in some kind of deeply committed relationship. Further, the Moon is 8H ruler, or the 4H from the 5H. The Moon and its trine aspect represents the child's father too. It's pretty cool that Jupiter and Libra are of the same nature, warm and moist (the querent is an academic and her partner will be an intellectual of some sort). The chart seemed to be saying that the man with whom you suffered the miscarriage may be the man whom you marry, with whom you have a child; it could be twins in this case. My point is that the Moon is working as the signal of events past and future, as a timer, as descriptor of circumstances, AND as a symbol of a person. All of those things at once.

In your chart (which I don't have in front of me), if Venus and Neptune are opposed to each other and Venus is a sig but separating, as you say Venus' interests are opposed to Neptune and she has just begun moving away from the dampness and troubles Neptune represents. However, if the the Moon at some future point is coming around to the conjunction of Neptune, then whatever Neptune stands for most likely will make a re-appearance in the perfection of the matter. This may or may not be a problem for Venus. The conjunction is a bodily aspect, if the conjunction of the Moon and Neptune occurs in the 1H (house of things we do ourselves), it may be that Venus wrestles Neptune to the ground and steps over him at last. If the conjunction is in the 6H Venus might catch a chill.

You do have to allow the Moon every aspect she makes, especially those with which she is in orb. But temper this by figuring out exactly what role(s) she is playing, then you'll get a sense of how to view those aspects.

Hope this helps.

You do have to allow the Moon every aspect she makes, especially those with which she is in orb.

Yes, brilliant, 1000Camels! I garbled this part, and naturally it was the most important bit!

I was thinking solely in terms of 'aspects after the fact', so to speak, wherein you have some immediate aspects that 'don't help' the situation, and after that you have several more lunar aspects before she gets to a place where she can 'help' again via conjunction or trine or whatever. I've seen charts attempted in this way, where the chart reader ignored several obvious aspects in order to 'get at' the aspect she wanted. I think one was a case where the moon was VOC in early Aquarius, and the reader was looking at the final (positive) outcome somewhere toward the end of Aquarius. In the meantime, though, the Moon was going out of VOC to aspect detrimented Saturn, and Mars, and somesuch. This is a more blatant case of prohibition!

If she is coming to the square of Mars or the opposition of Saturn, these represent huge obstacles that most likely cannot be overcome. So we have prohibition and/or frustration.

Yes, exactly.

But in the case of Jupiter, what then? In your chart, RC, how will the applying aspect to Jupiter from the Moon play out, and what does Jupiter represent? Surely he has to be taken into account in your chart, since he is there and in dignity and the moon touches him first? I don't think this can be overlooked, even if the Moon does eventually translate light from the Venus/Neptune opposition. Surely?

GH

Thank you for this clarification.

Reading what you are both saying then, if I am understanding you correctly, is that:

With regard to prohibition, if its the moon that is one of the significators, for example the Querent's co-significator, then a hard aspect like a square, etc., may or may not be a complete roadblock as it would have been if it were between the other planets, but that being the moon, rather than an absolute prohibition, this aspect could instead indicate obstacles in the way which may or may not be a "prohibition"? And that whether it is a prohibition would depend on factors such as reception, placement, etc. of the aspecting planet(s)?

Further, because it is the moon (which is allowed all aspects) we will continue to look beyond that road block/obstacle to see how the matter plays out, and whether it can overcome the obstacle ?

Have I re-stated it correctly?

As for the Jupiter aspect, I believe it is significant in this chart after further consideration. And if you'd like, I can post what the matter was about.

RC

With regard to prohibition, if its the moon that is one of the significators, for example the Querent's co-significator, then a hard aspect like a square, etc., may or may not be a complete roadblock as it would have been if it were between the other planets, but that being the moon, rather than an absolute prohibition, this aspect could instead indicate obstacles in the way which may or may not be a "prohibition"?

I give a conditional agreement to what you are saying. Frustration and prohibition are usually total, enough to deny perfection. But the Moon can show not only that the obstacle exists but what is causing the obstacle, she can also show the outcome of the confrontation with the obstacle. And this is why we give the Moon all her aspects.

If the Moon for example, makes a hard square to Saturn in detriment, this is a terrible aspect for the Moon to suffer, no matter where she is at. Conjunction can be bad too. Saturn by nature is slow and conservative, capable of slowing down and delaying any action. So the Moon's square could show a delay, but that the delay is so lengthy that the querent gives up hope. Is this prohibition or frustration? It depends on your view and the aspects in the chart.

Or say the Moon squares Saturn but is also receving the trine a dignified Jupiter just before she reaches that Saturn square, we must allow the Moon's trine to Jupiter in our interp. Jupiter is benefic, when dignified he's even more so, so the trine is good fortune of some sort. This may help the Moon by literally showing someone coming to the rescue. Jupiter isn't confounding the Moon (or any planet while he's in so much dignity), he's assisting and offering protection. It is possible for an intervening aspect to be of assistance.

In ANY case, it would be a major triumph to overcome a square to Saturn. It is rare for the Moon to be strong AND in a position where Saturn can't do damage to the events or interests she represents. (e.g. even if the Moon is in Libra or Aquarius where Saturn would receive her really strongly, she'd still be peregrine and thus weak.)

One technique (courtesy of Appleby) that can help you decipher the Moon's ability to overcome an obstacle is to look at the aspect between the Sun and the Moon in a chart. If these two complete a positive trine or sextile out of good houses or if they are in strong mutual reception, then the general circumstances surrounding the question will work out okay for the querent. If the Moon is applying trine the Sun in a horary where the Moon squares Saturn or opposes Mars the outcome will be positive somehow. Who knows? A square to Saturn may be just what the querent needs.

Horary is so chart specific. Evey chart will be different. I don't think any aspect should be ignored, because the heavens in their wisdom have decided to show the flow of events, revealed in these aspects. You MAY look beyond the aspect which shows the obstacle, but if the Moon is not already in orb of that difficult planet, it may be that the obstacle is only likely but absolutely a certainty.

Sure, post the chart and description of the background to the question and let's have a look.

Okay, thanks. I think I understand better now how prohibition works with the moon.

Question was asked on:

Aug. 26, 07 at 8:10 am EDT, Winchester, VA. It has Virgo rising.

Gunhilde will know a little about this already.

I asked the question: "Will I have to take the exam again?" I am waiting for the results of a bar exam and really don't want to have to take the exam again which of course I won't have to if I passed. I will not know results of that test until mid October.

I took the 9th house for the exam which is retro Venus. Querent ruler is Mercury, in 12th house in Virgo, about 7 degrees of ASC.

Mercury is VOC in that it does not apply to any aspects tho is separating from a SQU to Jupiter and Mars.

I took Moon as my co-significator since Mercury is not making any applying aspects. Moon opposes Venus from fixed signs. Both are fixed. Now I took this opposition as a good thing, in that I don't want to have to re-take the exam and my question was specifically about having to re-take it. If moon's application to Venus had been a trine or sextile or conjunction, I would think it would mean that I would be taking it again. But with the opposition aspect, I interpreted it to mean, no, I will not be re-taking it.

Before Moon opposes Venus, its first aspect is a sextile to Jupiter as Gunhilde pointed out. Jupiter is the end of matter 4th and also ruler of law and natural ruler of 9th of examinations, especially law examinations. It then goes from that sextile to Jupiter to trine Mars, which is ruler of 3rd house of reports/tests etc. in this chart. Mercury disposits Mars. Mars is also conjoining MC which I have noticed in other exam questions to be a good sign when it is ruler of the 3rd house of reports. (So if these aspects are good - a sextile to Jupiter and trine to ruler 3rd, are they still considered "prohibitions"?)

Some of my questions posted above regarding the translation of light was not really related to this question but was provoked by this question. I noticed that Venus, ruler of 9th was retro and separating from a direct opposition to Neptune, also retro. Neptune isn't a significator in this chart but because of the close aspect with Venus, I was intrigued by its possible meaning. Its aspect with Venus is a separating aspect but the moon would eventually aspect both of them, translating the light between them which I would rather not have seen happening in this question.

The moon's last aspect is to oppose Saturn, also fixed which is receiving the moon's opposition. I wondered if Saturn receiving the moon's opposition meant that saturn is welcoming the opposition in this regard, that is, I do not want to come together with that exam again!

I'm a little embarrassed here as Gunhilde knows I already asked "Did I pass?" And I know the rule about not asking the same question twice. But because I wanted to rule out the possibility of the first chart maybe saying, "No, but yes in the sense that you will pass it next time."

So this time I asked "will I have to take the exam again?" to see if there was any indication of that - just to clarify the answer better and rule out any such hanging conditions. I'm a bit of a nit picker and always have to be sure to rule out such things by nailing them down with confirmations. I just needed more evidence.

Some of what we discussed makes a lot of sense here. Jupiter coming in before the opposition, etc. may indicate that the report will be a pass grade and therefore there will be no need to re-take the exam.

RC