Keren, you had asked for the data for this chart: I wanted to post the actual chart, but I can never figure out how to do it!

So here is the date and time: May 31, 2007, at 10:17 a.m. in El Paso, Texas, USA. 106W29, 31N46. (It is daylight savings time). The chart on Astrodienst had Leo rising, with the moon in Sag about to conjunct the 5th house ruler of Jupiter. Since I used the fifth house to signify the house of pleasure and romance, this chart makes sense. (Otherwise, my much-younger lover would be ruled by Saturn).

When you look at the chart, you'll see that Jupiter is in the fifth house with the Moon and Pluto -- "other people" according to Lee Lehman. (Which makes sense, since my lover told me he is seeing two other women).

Also, I'm ruled by the Sun in Gemini here, and in this chart, the Sun is going to oppose Jupiter -- and I determined that indicated the upcoming separation between me and the young man -- which was true, I moved 600 miles away!

Your thoughts about contraception are very interesting and probably true, but it's moot in my case, since I'm way past pregnancy age!

On the other hand, you're also correct: the very asking of the question shows that I genuinely wish that this relationship could have long-term potential and that I really don't like "sharing" someone I'm very attracted to. I'll be interested to see what you make of the chart once you see it.

Thanks, Keren!

Hi, Voyagergirl!

My thought on this question is, don't forget to turn the chart.

In such questions, I would use the Lord/Lady of the fifth as the lover, and turn the chart to see who is in _his_ fifth house.

To put it another way, if the fifth is _your_ lover (and I agree that the chart can be read this way), then the fifth of the fifth is _his_ lover(s). Or, if he is married, the seventh of the fifth (radical eleventh) is his wife/committed relationship. This can be revealing, for we know not everyone is forthcoming with this information when having an affair.

I see Jupiter (your lover) in your fifth house, indicating his interest in you as a "playmate". The Moon is one of your significators, on the cusp of the fifth (questioning whether to "come out and play", or go the other way back to your "home base" fourth house)!

Moon conjuncts Jupiter before Sun opposes Jupiter. So you did get to see him, then, once before you moved away.

I don't use Pluto, so I don't read another lover for you, which two planets in your fifth would indicate.

In the fifth of the fifth (radical ninth) we have one planet, Mars. In the seventh of the fifth (radical eleventh) we have two planets, Sun and Mercury. One of the ladies he told you about, he has a commitment to. And there is another (committed) one hiding there that he hasn't confessed to yet; perhaps he has been keeping her in the dark altogether.

On the question of contraception. . . let's not forget that the fifth house indicates pregnancies as well as sex (restaurants, taverns, theatres, art galleries, games, gambling, sports, etc). Smile. Pregnancy is not a seventh house matter, as pregnancies can and do occur outside of committed relationships, although we know that these circumstances can be less than ideal.

In my opinion, the fifth house can indicate the affair, or the person you have the affair with: just as the seventh house can indicate the event of marriage, or the husband/wife. In other words, fifth house sexual activity demands a partner. Where will the described partner come from, if not the Lord/Lady of the fifth house?

My two cents!

Warmest regards,

Spirlhelix

Voyagergirl, thanks for the chart info. I don't have time to look at it right now but I'm looking forward to spending a good couple of hours on it!

Kirk - I agree with you. If you re-read my post you'll see I think that relationships are a 7th house matter (7th = person, 5th= activity). I can't agree that sex itself is 7th - there is a distinction here as there are for many other issues in horary (3rd is a journey but my car is 2nd, etc).

My point about contraception is that it has allowed the development of sexual "freedom"/promiscuity, which previously has wielded the consquences of unwanted pregnancy. Contraception has therefore engendered the somewhat casual attitude Western society (as a generalised whole) now appears to have towards sex. I agree that the speed with which we take off our clothes is a modern phenomenon (this is a generalisation of course, I'm sure promiscuity and one-night stands have been going on since the dawn of time... and of course not all of us are now promiscuous).

Still, I can't agree that sex belongs in the 7th. It's a loving act between two people (at least, it's supposed to be), and so the 5th, which trines the 1st and sextiles the 7th, seems to me the perfect place for it. And after all it is for making babies (5th again!) and it is supposed to be enjoyable. My point is that I sincerely dislike the notion that a *person* belongs there (in the same way that a sex toy would belong there!), no matter how "casual" or superficial the relationship.

Hi, Keren

With all due respect, since Lilly has us using the Lord or Lady of the fifth to represent the person of our agent (real estate agent or other representative in financial matters), I don't share the same hesitation you do to use the fifth to find a person.

In a chart where the distinction was important, I guess I'd look to the fifth for an artist, actor, waitress, barmaid, participant in sports, or child of the querent.

Out of curiosity, where would you look for any of those, then?

Regards,

Spirlhelix

Spiralhelix,

My post was written in the context of a romantic relationship question, which is what this thread is about

Hi, Keren!

This is the statement I was referencing:

My point is that I sincerely dislike the notion that a *person* belongs there (in the same way that a sex toy would belong there!), no matter how "casual" or superficial the relationship.

Sorry that was unclear!

This is just my opinion, but after applying Lilly for a number of years, and having so many "romance" questions asked of me, I think Lilly did not write about "romance" charts because of his own times and mores. In his day and age, people who could afford astrology married for financial stability. Great houses married for political reasons. Rarely did they marry someone as the result of a maturing romantic relationship. Times have changed. If Lilly had included some "romance" examples, we would have been more well-versed in this area of astrology. I don't think it's impossible to answer these questions, and I don't think it's wrong to. I do think Lilly had to write within certain parameters to avoid censure in the difficult times in which he lived. Charts about romance would have been too inflammatory to include in his book--_Christian Astrology_, after all!

But I'll bet if he were analyzing a "romance" chart, or if he had to describe the person represented by L5, he would have attached a person to the fifth house. I say that because it would be entirely consistent with his rules for all the other houses.

If a child is found on the chart as Lord of the Fifth, then that is a "person" arising from the interpretation of the fifth house. What is the hesitation in finding a romantic partner there, in a question bearing on romantic relationships?

One of the abiguities that arises with many questions about romance, in my opinion, is the intention of the querent. Most often, folks who ask about the future of their romantic relationships are really asking whether there will be any sort of commitment forthcoming from the object of their romantic interest. So many of our querents are wanting to know, so that they can decide how their time/resources/emotions will be best invested. For them, this is an important question.

For some querents, any sort of commitment will do. We have to nail down what the querent is looking for, to know which house to address. Some querents would be happy to know that their current romance (or sexual dalliance, if that would better describe it) will be long-term. That would be a fifth house question. And that answer could be found in the angles of the chart. Fixed=long-term, Common=moderate length or on-and-off, Cardinal=short.

If the querent is wondering about legal commitment, that is a seventh=house chart. Have to run!

Regards,

Spirlhelix

Well I'll reply from a strictly traditional perspective.

I always use the 7th house ruler as the significator in all relationship questions. I've never seen any traditional source recommend anything but that, all all the gyrations we can concoct about the ancients being prudes and contraception don't change the fact that the ancients knew life as well as we did and knew astrology a lot better. As far as the essential nature of the planets goes, the most basic part of horary is know the houses and what they mean. You can't just devise rules willy-nilly when it's all been written quite well before hand, and knowledge of the houses comes first.

I'd prefer to stick to this chart and the question. The question really is not so much about whether this guy is playing around or not, it's whether he's a suitable and available partner to the querent. All the rest is secondary.

The 7th house ruler is Saturn in Leo in the first. Saturn in detriment is a sure sign that the person is either unwilling, unable or unsuitable for a relationship with the querent, though it's placement in the ASC may indicate that though he may be unsuitable, he may be taken by the querent. That is confirmed by Saturn being in Leo, which is the sign of the querent. But it's this very fact that is bad for this guy, as Saturn is in detriment in Leo. I wouldn't make too much of this though... the headline is really that no matter what the appearances are, this guy is not going to be a long term partner for the querent.

The Sun is applying to Saturn by Sextile, but with Saturn in detriment that though there maybe some contact between them, nothing much positive will come of it.

As far as him having other partners, just a quick look at this chart shows a separating trine between Saturn and Jupiter retrograde and an applying trine from Mars. So you've got one past relationship and one coming up for this guy. I'd guess that the Jupiter one shows that he recently reconciled with a previous partner but then moved on from her.

Hi, Mark

I appreciate your candor, and even appreciate your staunch support of traditional astrology, which I likewise respect.

As one astrologer to another, I think you would be wise to eschew the solution of re-interpreting the question the querent asked after the fact.

If I had asked the question, "Is he seeing someone else?" and an astrologer had answered, "He is suitable and available to you", I think I would ask for my money back. Your response does not answer what was asked.

There would be some who would consider this sort of question "celestial spying", which has a bad reputation with the ancients (women could be put to death, as I understand, for inquiring about the horoscope of their husband). However, by the time of Lilly, we find the astrologer answering questions like,

From Christian Astrology by William Lilly:

"Of a woman whether she be corrupt, or has a
Lover besides her Husband or sweetheart."

"Behold the Ascendant and his Lord, and the Moon, and see if they be both in angles or fixed Signes, then say the Maid is a Virgin, and they lye of her, or what is reported is false: if the Lord
of the Ascendant, and the Moon be in fixed Signes, and the angles be moveable Signes, she was tempted, but gave no credit or admittance to the Temptor. If the Moon be joyned to Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun corporally by aspect, so that there is between them but 5 degrees or lesse, she is tempted of someone who has the effigies of that Planet to whom she is joyned; but if the Moon be joyned to Venus or Mercury, she is tempted by some woman for a man, but she makes not reckoning of the old or young Bawds words, but she laughs her to scorne: If the angles be fixed Signes, and the Lord of the Ascendant or Moon in moveable or common Signes (for in this judgment the common are of lesse importance) she hath been attempted, and is still tempted, but she is honest; and hath been formerly deluded, if she be with the North Node: but if then the Moon be with South Node, she has formerly offended, and is still guilty, nor will she amend hereafter; the same may be said of Mars, if he be in place of the South Node; yet Mars imposes not so much malice on the woman as South Node: generally the Moon in any Question with South Node, imports mis?reports of the woman, you may call them slanders.

If Lilly is not above answering the question the querent asked, I personally don't feel I am above it, either. A man asking whether a woman is faithful may be concerned about the paternity of children he may otherwise have to raise. A woman may be concerned that she will be burdened with the risk of a disease (some venereal diseases are fatal even in our day and age).

Such matters may be implicit in the querent's question, but overall I think women who would ask this question tend to care about their investment--physical, emotional, temporal, financial. The health risk is important, but the question overall is bigger than just taking a physical health risk, and more specific than "suitable-available."

So maybe we should just apply Lilly's rules for this question and answer it as it was asked. I'm just not sure whether to use the Moon or the Sun for the woman's sweetheart. Would you like to jump in on this point?

Regards,

Pam

Mark,

I always use the 7th house ruler as the significator in all relationship questions.

Question: "Is he seeing someone else?"

I think there is an argument against simplifying this question to the seventh-house format, which may be why Lilly did not use it in answering a similar question.

"Of a woman whether she be corrupt, or has a
Lover besides her Husband or sweetheart." --William Lilly

The seventh house is for relationships. What if you are asking about the relationship of the person you are having a relationship with? Now you are looking at your own first house (seventh of the seventh) for the covert relationship. In most instances, chart-turning is a very effective way to find a signficator. I use it _almost_ all the time. In this instance, the information given by the chart is rendered confusing and less than helpful by duplication of the first house and its significator in the question.

I think your ubiquitous rule for relationship questions deserves some refining.

Regards,

Pam

"As far as him having other partners, just a quick look at this chart shows a separating trine between Saturn and Jupiter retrograde and an applying trine from Mars. So you've got one past relationship and one coming up for this guy. I'd guess that the Jupiter one shows that he recently reconciled with a previous partner but then moved on from her."

My lover was indeed seeing other women. However, we continued to see each other on a very limited basis when I would travel to my former hometown. In Dec. 2007, my lover had to cancel a tryst with me because his "ex-girlfriend" suddenly appeared on his doorstep. Or so he said. Then a few months later, in April 2008, my lover ceased communication with me. I supposed that he'd either reconciled with the "ex" or was in a relationship with someone new. I didn't hear from him again until 8 months had passed: and we picked up from where we left off: a casual dalliance.

My lover and I continued to see each other sporadically over the next two years. This year, we saw each other several times, and interestingly, he became more and more open with me regarding his hopes and dreams, family secrets revealed, etc. In fact, we actually began spending more of our time talking than... um... making love.

However, since he is now in his late 30's, I realize he is wanting to settle down with someone. He mentioned wanting to save money to buy a house... and mentioned wanting that even more than he wanted a girlfriend. (Which of course, means he wants a house and a girlfriend: a clear sign he's ready to handle a serious, committed, relationship).

So, I've not heard from him since March, and I'm assuming he got his wish. But, you never know... it's quite possible he'll contact me again!

In the meantime, I'm hoping to meet someone myself, someone who is a viable candidate for a long-term relationship with me.