We just found out that my husband has to take an ultrasound test to discover the reason for some turbulence the doctor heard when listening to his abdomen and near the hepatic artery. (He's being treated for high blood pressure).

There are three possibilites for this turbulence; general hardening of arteries being the least of the problems, aneurysm being the worst which would require surgery. He is worried about the test and asked a horary and I'm working on it.

I am not sure what planet to use for an ultra sound test. Can anyone help?

RC

Hi RC, Sorry to hear of the health worries.

Is this question about the test, or is it fundamentally about your husband's health? I would probably suggest you explore the latter rather than the former, as the parameters are much more clear.

The ultrasound itself might be given to the 10th, which is the physician's (7th) action. It's normally used for prescription, etc, but I don't see why it wouldn't also rule a procedure.

But I think the question ought to be clarified in your heart, first...

Best,
GH

Gunhilde wrote:Hi RC, Sorry to hear of the health worries.

Is this question about the test, or is it fundamentally about your husband's health? I would probably suggest you explore the latter rather than the former, as the parameters are much more clear.

The ultrasound itself might be given to the 10th, which is the physician's (7th) action. It's normally used for prescription, etc, but I don't see why it wouldn't also rule a procedure.

But I think the question ought to be clarified in your heart, first...

Best,
GH

Hi GH:

He was alone when he formed the question and asked it while driving home from doc's office. He was/is mainly worried about what the test will reveal though he has been worried for months about the hypertension and never asked a question about it. So today, he asked "Will the ultra sound test reveal anything serious such as requiring surgery?" The thought came to him that way and I was not with him to clarify it. I would imagine that the condition would be shown in the same question and will analyze it for that as well if I can. And his concern is really I suppose what is causing the turbulence as much as what the test will show.

Regarding the ultrasound test itself, I've only located two rulership books that I have so far; Rex Bills and Lee Lehman and neither lists ultra sounds. So I looked under X-rays. Bills lists x-rays, s-ray technicians and machines and gives: Uranus & Aquarius and then also Pluto and Mars. Under the mars alternative he doesn't list a sign so I'm assuming 8th for Scorpio since he included Pluto. Interestingly, my husband's horary has Scorpio rising. Lehman has nothing for x-rays, diagnosics or photographs.

The tests though is really just part of the diagnostic process so maybe I should approach it from that angle and I would imagine that would be an 8th house matter? Lehman lists "Diseases (what is the cause)" as a 6th house matter. His ruler is in 8th which concerned me a little but it may be there because that is the area he was concerned about.

I'm going to search through Max Heindel's works to see if I can find anything else for this rulership.

If anyone has any other rulerships for this please let me know.

Thanks,

RC

Hi RC,

I would never ever ever EVER use the 8th house to describe any sort of health matter other than death, no matter who says you can! The 6th is health, full-stop, and we use the 6th house to avoid the 8th! (And yes, you're right; his significator in the 8th doesn't necessarily mean he's going to die, but that he is preoccupied with these 8th house matters).

His concern is not the test; his concern is his health: this is why the questions need to be picked around in to find the 'core'. His question is not, "will I pass the test?", like yours was. His question is [basically], "Am I seriously ill?"

I would read this as a 6th house matter, since he is 'ill', so to speak. Frawley seems to think that you look at the planet afflicting the person, as the illness itself, rather than the ruler of the 6th, which would rule the general health, naturally. However, I have usually had success just looking at the general state of the 6th house and any planets affecting it.

Best,
GH

The 6th is health, full-stop, and we use the 6th house to avoid the 8th!

Isn?t the 6th illness rather than health? Health and vitality are 1st house. The 1st doesn?t behold the 6th or 8th ? hence illness and death. The 6th would be threats to health.

I would read this as a 6th house matter, since he is 'ill', so to speak.

You seem to fluctuate between health and illness for the 6th!

Hi, RC

I routinely use the ninth house for all medical testing: "information of the doctor"--third of the radical seventh. It seems to work very well for medical tests, which usually come to the doctor in the form of the technician's notes, on paper.

The question about surgery, however, I would consider a tenth house matter, for treatment. I would look for Mars for surgery in the tenth, ruling the tenth, aspecting the tenth cusp, or aspecting the Lord or Lady of the tenth.

Best of everything to you and your husband. . . try to relax and take it one step at a time.

I'll give you my thoughts on the chart as soon as I have time to look into it.

Warmest Regards,

Pam

Gunhilde wrote:Hi RC,

I would never ever ever EVER use the 8th house to describe any sort of health matter other than death, no matter who says you can! The 6th is health, full-stop, and we use the 6th house to avoid the 8th! (And yes, you're right; his significator in the 8th doesn't necessarily mean he's going to die, but that he is preoccupied with these 8th house matters).

His concern is not the test; his concern is his health: this is why the questions need to be picked around in to find the 'core'. His question is not, "will I pass the test?", like yours was. His question is [basically], "Am I seriously ill?"

I would read this as a 6th house matter, since he is 'ill', so to speak. Frawley seems to think that you look at the planet afflicting the person, as the illness itself, rather than the ruler of the 6th, which would rule the general health, naturally. However, I have usually had success just looking at the general state of the 6th house and any planets affecting it.

Best,
GH

Yes, I agree with this. If I try to use Mars or 8th house rulers just to see what an x-ray will reveal I may end up mis-reading this whole thing and frightening myself to boot. I would not tell him anything bad anyway.

If I don't use the outer planets, his moon is void of course. Its only aspect is a sextile to pluto and the teachings I studied in past, always said a voc moon often means, that the thing you are worried about will come to nothing. His 8th is ruled by air sign Gemini and so maybe Mars being in there indicates his thoughts are preoccupied with that house. I think it may be good thing it is not a fixed sign.

Thanks for re-directing me.

RC

spirlhelix wrote:Hi, RC

I routinely use the ninth house for all medical testing: "information of the doctor"--third of the radical seventh. It seems to work very well for medical tests, which usually come to the doctor in the form of the technician's notes, on paper.

The question about surgery, however, I would consider a tenth house matter, for treatment. I would look for Mars for surgery in the tenth, ruling the tenth, aspecting the tenth cusp, or aspecting the Lord or Lady of the tenth.

Best of everything to you and your husband. . . try to relax and take it one step at a time.

I'll give you my thoughts on the chart as soon as I have time to look into it.

Warmest Regards,

Pam

Oh thanks Pam and everyone who responded.

I will consider all these points and then post the chart info and what I can come up with and see if I am going in the right direction.

Warmly,
RC

Kirk,

Well, I use the word 'health' here in terms of its effect on the 1st house, because your health affects your vitality, innit, and if you're not healthy, you won't have much zip. So it's important to look at the 6th in ANY question of 'health'.

Cheers,
GH

Hi
I'm sorry to hear about your hasband having to undergone the test.

Kirk is right; the AC and the ruler shows the qurrent's health. The 6th house and its Lord, and the planets in the house describe the nature of the illness, particularyly when they afflict the Lord of AC, or either of the Luminaries (according to Culpeper).

I haven't looked at the chart but if the Moon is VOC, then it probably means that there's nothing to worry about. You don't need to pay attention to Pluto if it's not prominently palced on the angles or it's not connected to the rest of the chart. But of course as you know you'll have to look at the entire chart for the confirmation.

The 10th describes the treatment so the test may be included there but I don't think there's no need to pinpoint which house or planet specifically rules the test because the vital question is to see the condition of your husband's health.

Hi, to follow up on my prior posts, here is the question:

My husband asked:

Question: ?Will the ultra-sound test reveal anything serious such as requiring surgery??
Date: Sept. 14, 2007 11:45 AM EDT, Winchester, VA, USA.
House system used: Koch: ASC: 18 Scorpio 56
This is what I?ve come up with:

Querent is ruled by Mars which is in the mental air sign of Gemini in 8th, natural ruler of Scorpio and Scorpio is rising. I believe this shows what was on the Querent's mind which worried him enough to ask the question.

I did not find indicators for surgery in the old texts, but modern astrology assigns the 8th house to surgery as well as death. He was obviously concerned about both as also shown by the co-ruler moon in the 12th. Moon also rules 9th house of "seriousness" (Al-Burini) and his very question asked about the "seriousness" of what the exam might reveal.

Al-Burini also assigned examination of the Querent's body to the 2nd house. 8th is the opposing house so this makes sense to me. He luckily has Jupiter conjoining his 2nd cusp ruling the exam. Jupiter is in its own sign and is dignified by rulership and placement.

I believe the report on that exam would be the 4th house, (3rd house of reports on physical exam & 4th house end of matter from 1st). Saturn rules that house. Saturn is in 1:30 Virgo in the 10th. The only aspect to it I believe is his ruler Mars which is in 22:54 Gemini and it is a sextile. Saturn is angular so the test should be revealing of the matter explored. Venus is in Leo.

The dispositor of Mars is Mercury in Libra, the sign that rules kidneys. Mercury and Saturn are in several mutual receptions with each other. Saturn causes obstruction. Venus recently crossed over Saturn into Leo which rules arteries.

Leo and Sun have rulership over arteries as well as Mercury (Al-Biruni) and Jupiter. Sun and Saturn are in Virgo which rule the abdomen. Mercury is the dispositor of Mars, ruler of the 6th. Mercury also has a reflex action on the 6th here since it is in Libra. Venus in Leo (ruling arteries) recently passed over Saturn. All of this seems to suggest there is a problem or suspected problem with hardening (Saturn in 10th on MC) of arteries obstructing the blood flow to the kidneys (Mercury and Moon in Libra).

The other possibility mentioned by the doctor ordering the tests was a possible aneurysm. Venus, being ruler of veins and clots, going retrograde can cause aneurysms. This is what has my husband and me worried. Even if it would come out well, who wants to go under the knife? After noting the Venus retrograde over Saturn this causes me even more concern (though I haven't told him that is sometime a result of Venus retro.)

I had been watching his natal closely because when all the planets lined up in Leo a while back, they all opposed his natal Moon and Venus which are conjunct in his first house in the sign of Aquarius ( which rules high blood pressure, problems with circulation, etc) . He has been fighting to control his blood pressure with drugs. Transiting Neptune is also conjunct his natal Venus (drug therapy). He's on prescription drugs for first time in his life. We tried all natural remedies to no avail.

I was a little comforted by the following factors in the horary chart:

+ Moon is VOC (if you do not consider Pluto) which will often mean nothing comes of what you are fearing or worrying over. He has Moon in fear 12th and Mars in fear 8th.

+ Mercury the dispositor of the Querent's ruler and Almuten of the chart and also ruler of 8th. It makes no bad aspects, most especially, no bad aspects to malefics. It also sextiles Jupiter, the examination and Venus its dispositor in the 9th house of the Doctor's report/exam.

The most important of these aspects I thought was Mercury's sextile to Jupiter since the exam of Querent (Jupiter - 2nd) and (Mercury - 8th, holding Querent's ruler and the area of concern are the two opposing houses here and they are in harmonious aspect. I think this is especially relevant here as Mercury which is in Libra describes the condition being tested for: (interference with arterial blood flow to the kidneys). Also, Mercury and Saturn are receiving each other.

+ Sun sextiles the Part of Life in his 1st house on his ASC.
+ Regulus is on the MC and I've read if with Saturn, this is indicative of good health in native charts but I'm not sure if it applies here since Saturn is in 1' Virgo and this being a horary question.
+ The ruler of the 8th did not aspect Mars and Mars was not in mutual reception with its ruler. Mars makes no bad aspects to malefics and is not in aspect with ruler of the 8th.

The conditions that concerned me:

- Sun in Virgo SQ Mars in 8th. Perhaps this is not that serious since there had to be something bad in the chart to describe the worry/concern which led to scheduling the test. Also the Sun is a benefic which helps. But both are disposited by Mercury which as stated, is in good aspect with the exam and disposits Saturn which receives it.

- Venus retrograde over Saturn not long ago, and the possibility of it having created an aneurysm, one of the possibilities we are testing for.

This worries me especially when looking at his natal chart. I kept telling him that once Saturn, Sun and rest moved off the opposition he should get better if we could make it through October when Venus returns there and moves on into Virgo. I thought he was almost out of the woods except for waiting on Venus, but then, the doctor heard this sudden turbulence which he had not heard in prior exams.

I noticed his ASC is in Serpentis but not sure what relevance to put to it. His moon is also in via Combust way, which I put down to his feeling of helplessness and worry over the possibilities.
If anyone has anything to add or disagrees with any of this, please don't hesitate to post.

Sorry if I garbled this a bit. Its late.

Best,

RC

Hi, RC!

I hope you and your husband have been doing well. I know it is stressful to wait for tests and results. I have been looking at the chart you posted on your husband's upcoming test; although we agree on the general outcome of this health matter, I thought I would add what I see in the chart using decumbiture techniques from Lilly, Pepercorn, and Saunders.
Perhaps it is unnecessary to apply these techniques to a horary chart (although the few times I've tried, they have held up), so I leave it to your discretion whether you want to stress to your husband that other astrologers confirm the "good outlook" you see in the chart, or whether to discuss the additional information below. It seems the Lord of his Ascendant in the eighth house reveals a vulnerable emotional state.

I, too, feel strongly that we are looking at a chart that predicts a good outcome in the area of health. So although I'd say right along with you that "everything will be fine". I would also like to comment on some other things that jumped out at me from the chart using decumbiture rules.

Moon is Void of Course; her next aspect in her next sign is to Jupiter. That is a good sign: so I'm not really worried about your husband being in grave peril.

The Moon rules the ninth house of testing, however, and I interpret the Void of Course Moon to signify the action of the chart, as limited by the phrasing of the question asked: ?Will the ultra-sound test reveal anything serious such as requiring surgery??

Moon, as ruler of the ultrasound test (which makes perfect sense when you think of how fluids are portrayed in an ultrasound, and they smear the patient with that wet, cold jelly. . .even the images have that "lit from one side" lunar quality) shows nothing requiring surgery (Void of Course).

Venus, however, signifying your husband's doctor (a nephrologist, perhaps, represented by Venus, ruler of the Kidneys) is posited in the ninth house of "information of the doctor" and still has a few moves up her sleeve. More testing, I would imagine: based on what the chart is telling us, as Venus is applying to a square to the querent's ascendant followed by a sextile to Mars.

I do not diagnose from horary charts or decumbiture charts. The most I will do is to let the patient know when a chart suggests a problem with a certain area of the body, and perhaps suggest testing at the doctor's discretion or some condition for his or her doctors to rule out, if they have not already done so.

This chart is screaming, "kidneys". If your husband's doctor does not mention having them tested, I would think it wise for you to ask. Here are three signs of kidney problems on your husband's chart:

Moon has recently passed New. Saunders and Pepercorn both say to use the cusp of the twelfth house for sickness during a waxing Moon (Sixth is for a waning Moon). The sign on the cusp of the twelfth is Libra, which rules the kidneys.

Venus, ruler of the illness, is approaching a square to the Ascendant, which represents the body and health of the querent.

The place on the chart which represents the kidneys, according to Saunders, is the cusp of the tenth house. Saturn is posited on the cusp of the tenth house; the symbolism represents restriction or blockage of the kidneys. This condition can affect the heart; in your husband's chart, Mercury in Libra is posited in the eleventh house, describing the heart--ruled again, by Venus, she of the kidneys. A condition which limits the flow of the blood through the kidneys known as renal stenosis is well-known for causing hypertension resistant to medication, which you mentioned your husband has. I'm not a doctor, so please rely on your husband's doctor's thoughts on this. His doctor, the Lady of the seventh house, is Venus: a benefic, and placed in the ninth, a good house, so we can have confidence in her.

Now the other area of the chart which was mentioned in your question is treatment: the tenth house shows treatment. Twenty-nine Leo on the cusp of the tenth conjuncts the fixed star Regulus, ruled by the Sun.
The next aspect of the Sun is a square to Mars, as you mentioned in your analysis. The intention of this treatment is to "regulate" (one meaning of Regulus) your husband's heart. With the approaching square to Mars,
(Sun, treatment, squares Mars, surgery) I do not think I can predict with a good conscience that no surgery will be necessary to treat your husband.

There is a routine procedure which is both diagnostic and a form of treatment for this condition, which is angioplasty.

If you feel brave enough to look at a medical illustration (but take it easy on yourself if you don't), here is one which shows the site used to access the arteries:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... s/1080.htm

I wonder if it is a "coincidence". . . that the site of aceess (catheter entrance) is perfectly described by your husband's ascendant (which describes his body) on this horary chart. Eighteen Scorpio; a little more than halfway down into the Scorpio area (from below the bikini line, down to the crotch). Mars is in a masculine sign, above the horizon, which predicts (Sun, treatment, square Mars, your husband's body) a surgical access on the front of the body, on the right side, a little more than midway between the bikini line and the crotch. Very similar--identical, really, to what you see in this drawing.

Dear RC, I hope that is simply food for thought, and not too much to deal with at once. You seem like a level-headed person, and I know you will respond to your husband's inquiries and concerns with wisdom and discretion. When one becomes ill, especially with a chronic condition like hypertension for the first time, it is hard to know what to do with the thoughts that keep revolving. In asking his question, your husband must have instinctively felt there would be comfort in having more information rather than less.

I hope I am mistaken about the need for a surgical treatment, but one thing I can assure you is that this procedure is very routine and the only part of it that is considered risky is getting the patient (who normally feels quite well) to lie still during the recovery period.

Warmest regards to you and
Well wishes to your husband!

Pam