Hi, Skyscripters

There is some debate whether it is appropriate to traditional astrology to attach a person (lover) to the fifth house. I have been warming up to research a decumbiture chart by reading Richard Saunders. Accidentally (!), I found an example of the use of the Fifth house Lord to signify a lover.

Richard Saunders _Astrolgical Judgment of Physick_, Vol. 2, p.22, published in 1677.

"If the Lord of the Ascendant be in the Ascendant, in his own House, in the sign of the Ascendant, not remote, as Venus in Libra, and at a full sextile to Saturn in Leo in the tenth, being Lord of the 5th, the Cause of the Disease was thought taken for the one she loved, which forsook her."

"Thought taken" seems to refer to what we would call anxiety or stress.

I did notice that in the context, the "lover" was an unsympathetic character who was named as the "cause of the Disease". How many of us, after a romantic rejection, describe ourselves as broken or even lovesick? The context provides a reason to caution a man or woman against engaging in a romantic liason, for the sake of his/her health. It is not a neutral view to romance, or a permissive one.

This would not have been a veneral disease, as Saunders has other ways to find such a disease on the chart and does not hesitate to name them.

This use of the fifth house to find a significator for "lover" would be within publishable mores for the time it was written. I do not feel that Lilly would ever have published a neutral chart on romantic liasons (as they often imply sexual contact, for instance) outside of marriage. In my opinion, it would have been bad for his reputation, and that of his work _Christian Astrology_, 1647.

Does anyone know of a William Lilly chart example which even bears on the subject of a romantic relationship? Please let me know if you do.

Regards,

Pam

Hi Pam,

Does anyone know of a William Lilly chart example which even bears on the subject of a romantic relationship?

The section in Christian Astrology on the 7th house is the longest section in the section on horary, probably the longest in the entire work. About 50% of the information in this section involved Romantic relationships, mostly marriage and fidelity, but not all. The section on the fifth house is very short and consists of questions regarding children.

At the end of England's Prophetical Merlin Lilly deals with a love question that is something of a classic: A Gentlewoman desired to know if she should have an aged man; yea or no."

In CA we find how to answer questions like:

Whether a Damsel be a Maid or not.
Whether a woman will be honest to he husband
Of a woman whether she be corrupt, or has a lover besides her husband or sweetheart.
Whether a woman trades with any besides her husband

and other useful stuff.

As for charts on page 385
If a lady shall marry the Gentleman desired

Page 389
If she should marry the man desired
Friday 14, June 1644 (OS)
10:30 AM
probably London
16 Virgo rises

Hope this helps.

Tom

Hi, Tom

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. I respect your thoughts as someone who has studied Lilly closely.

So when someone asks you a horary question about romance, do we assume it always involves marriage?

The one question of Lilly's that you named--"Of a woman whether she be corrupt, or has a lover besides her husband or sweetheart" which _does not_ assume marriage and does _not_ use the partner's seventh (or the radical first house) to find a significator for the partner's lover.

In my experience with actual horary questions asked, sometimes they do deal with marriage, and sometimes they most certainly don't. And sometimes they throw in the unheard-of third party in a neutral or sympathetic role. Which Lilly _never_ does.

Like the choice or comparison between two lovers, currently posted on this list. Sorry we do not have the exact phrasing of this question.

So let's say the question was, "Which relationship is going to be more fulfilling?"

Lilly does not show how to find the significators for this question.

Or here's another: "Will my girlfriend tell my wife I am cheating?"

Another: "Will I be better off if I stay with my husband, or drop him for my lover?" Where do you find the significators? Lilly did not address this.

Or, if you ask a question about a missing item, only to learn it was stolen, how would you distinguish between a lover who was a "theif" and a husband who was a "theif" on the chart?

Here's one you might think is silly, but I actually had this question from a guy: "Will I score with someone I meet tonight?". Did I answer? Smile. I seem to remember I begged off on a consideration. Thinking with dollar signs, perhaps it would have been good for my business as an astrologer to answer it anyway.

To tell the truth, both men and women are intrigued with what I'm calling, in a general sense, "romance", and plenty of horary questions are asked on these themes. Many of them have nothing to do with marriage per se; some do. Some include both a marriage partner and another in a "triangle".

You have cited a few examples of Lilly which only address these "romance"--as you think of them--questions from a point of view that is not neutral, and is not sympathetic. Lilly's questions are asked by an "injured party"; naturally, Lilly seems to imply, it is in the best interest of that person to find out what's really going on and deal with it.

Lilly never answers the ubiquitous question we face as astrologers, "What sort of relationship will this be?"

I'm not saying that Lilly was wrong to eschew these questions, just that he never published them, if he answered them.

Regards,

Pam

Hi Pam,

My point in mentioning marriage is that those are the predominent questions in theis section fo the book. It is also a reflection of his work and his times. Contemporary horary astrologers will get all sorts of questions about relationships, Lilly's because of the mores of his day, would get relationship questions pertaining to marriage.

The horary in the Prophetical Merlin is a good example. The woman was considering accepting a marriage proposal from an older man, but she had reservations, and the age difference was one of them. Seen through 21st century eyes we may look at her as a bit cold and calculating, but look at her situation. She needed to know if this man could take care of her financially, and would there be sufficient finances upon his death? This is legitimate concern. Women in the 17th century could not go and get jobs when things got tough. So whom to marry was an important decision that covered a lot more ground than a permanent love affair.

So when someone asks you a horary question about romance, do we assume it always involves marriage?

I tend to look at the part of marriage whether the question specifically involves marriage or not, unless it is obviously irrelevant. The reason is that most people would not consult a horary astrologer if they weren't serious about the quesited. I'm not talking about teenage girls, but adult women (usually) who are thinking about the future. But I would always use the 7th house for the significant other - not the 5th.

In my experience with actual horary questions asked, sometimes they do deal with marriage, and sometimes they most certainly don't. And sometimes they throw in the unheard-of third party in a neutral or sympathetic role. Which Lilly _never_ does.

Lilly's textbook is a primer. He gives us what he's got and he tries to maintain some sense of propriety. Adultery is as old as relationships and it always involves a third person. When Lilly asks if the wife "trades with another" the third person is implied.

So let's say the question was, "Which relationship is going to be more fulfilling?"

Lilly does not show how to find the significators for this question.

Reception tends to show us the way. I'd start with using the 7th for the spouse and let reception tell me who the other party is unless it is stated. For example if the other party is the wife's sister, then use the 3rd from the 7th. Wife's friend" 11th of the 7th. Neighbor? The third etc.

Another: "Will I be better off if I stay with my husband, or drop him for my lover?" Where do you find the significators? Lilly did not address this.

No work can address every single situation. The astrologer has to use the principles which include proper identification of significators, reception, etc. The best way to learn this is study and practice. The biggest advantage of horary is that the results of the prediction are often learned in short order. If the astrologer is wrong, he or she can go back to the chart and try to figure out what happened.

Also, you'd be surprised how often Saturn ends up as the significator for the spouse : spoiling all the fun.

Here's one you might think is silly, but I actually had this question from a guy: "Will I score with someone I meet tonight?". Did I answer? Smile. I seem to remember I begged off on a consideration. Thinking with dollar signs, perhaps it would have been good for my business as an astrologer to answer it anyway.

I've heard sillier. John Frawley tells the story of a client, a married woman having an affair wtih a married man. Seems she caught him sleeping with yet another. When she confronted him he explained, reasonably enough, that this latest woman blackmailed him into sleeping with her. (Happens to me all the time) Of course he didn't want to do it. The woman's question? Will he leave his wife for me? Do we really need a chart for this?

Human relationships are complicated. It is only natural for the horary judgment to be compicated.

You might want to put up one of these questions for the group to discuss. Withold the outcome until there is a decent amount of discussion on the topic. That might be fun.

Tom

My point in mentioning marriage is that those are the predominent questions in theis section fo the book. It is also a reflection of his work and his times. Contemporary horary astrologers will get all sorts of questions about relationships, Lilly's because of the mores of his day, would get relationship questions pertaining to marriage.

Thanks, Tom. That is pretty close to the point I was trying to make. We don't know how Lilly would have handled these questions because he gave no mention of these examples in his work.

We do know, however, that Lilly applied some consitent rules to "relationships" of different descriptions. Tenant is Lord of the Sixth. Clergyman is Lord of the ninth. Landlord is Lord of the tenth. Friend is Lord of the Eleventh. Unknown enemy is Lord of the twelfth. Stranger is Lord of the Third.

And we know that "lover" is never Lord of the Fifth. . .or, do we? Or is this just a principle we have inferred, since Lilly did not address himself to neutral or sympathetic questions about exramarital relationships? Do we _know_ this, or do we assume it as a result of Lilly's silence?

Regards,

Pam

Do we _know_ this, or do we assume it as a result of Lilly's silence?

I think we know this from experience and because no other horary astrologer until very recent times used the fifth for a lover. All descriptions of the 5th house list children first and fun second. From this we've inferred creativity and procreativity. Turning the fifth house into a person is new with the possible exception of the Saunders reference, and the wording of that makes me a bit suspicions However, I couldn't locate that reference in my copy of Saunders to read it through, but you said volume 2 and I didn't know there was a volume 2.

Tom

Hi, Tom

I have Saunders in two books; it is a facsimile copy. It is the part of the work that starts "Section Two", so I guess I should have called it that instead of "Book Two". He renumbers all of the pages in Section two from the beginning.

The section begins with:

"General Judgments, Whereby to Know the Diseases and Distempers of the Body", which Saunders paginates as page 1.

The last pages of this section deal with Saunders' examples of decumbiture charts; the final page is 215.

Turning the fifth house into a person is new with the possible exception of the Saunders reference, and the wording of that makes me a bit suspicions

So, out of curiousity, what is it that you suspect, Tom?

Regards,

Pam

I hope this assists in finding the passage of Sanders which is quoted above. I'm pretty sure you and I are just using different versions of Saunders.

"To Know Where the Fault Shall be, if the Sick be not Cured" p. 19 (Section II).

If you look at the "Table of the Principal Matters contained in this Treatise" which starts just following the preface at the beginning of the Section One, you will find that Section I ends with

"The Cure . . .page 208.
of Caput Draconis . . .ibid
of Cauda Draconis. . .ibid." Then Section II begins:
"To know the Diseases and distempers
of the Body . . . 1.
To know the Cause of the Disease
. . . 8."
and so forth. The topic which contains the passage in question:
"To know where the fault shall be
if the Sick be not cured . . . 19. . ."

If you can find this topic in Section II, you will locate the passage quoted above on p. 22, about halfway down the page (in the facsimile version). If you are looking at the first section of the book perhaps by mistake, you will find information about "the Crisis in Diseases" on p. 22, Section I.

Sorry to make extra work for you, what with our different versions! But upon further discussion I'm really curious to see what you think of this passage.

Warmest regards,

Pam

So, out of curiousity, what is it that you suspect, Tom?

That in full context he was using the 5th as a derived or turned house of another. I'm travelling. I'll look it all up when I get home on Friday. Thanks for the additional information.

Tom

That in full context he was using the 5th as a derived or turned house of another. I'm travelling. I'll look it all up when I get home on Friday. Thanks for the additional information.

Hi, Tom

Well, I guess I might as well quote a little more so folks who don't have their own Saunders can follow along. I have been utterly defeated in finding a copy of Saunders online; if anyone knows where one is hiding, please shout it out!

The context is a discussion of factors which are to be blamed for the patient's not recovering their health. Very handy, if you are a doctor! Smile.

This part of the discussion centers on the tenth house; Saunders signifies the tenth as the physician, so we see the relationship with the physician elucidated; also, the factors that are actually "ruling" the patient are elaborated. Our quote seems to fall into the second category.

"The Lord of the Ascendant in the 10th fortunate, the sick will be ruled, and take his Medicines willingly, and honour his Physitian.

The Lord of the Ascendant in the 8th remote, and Saturn in the Ascendant not remote, the sick will be very weak in taking his medicine, and be sick for a time, and leave taking his Medicine; and yet he shall find great ease, and be well again, but if Saturn be Lord of the sixth, he will be sick again.

The Lord of the Ascendant in the tenth, with Venus Lady of the fourth in Taurus, and the Moon applying to Jupiter in the seventh, then take the Party in hand, for he will be ruled, and thou shalt have great love, favour and friendship.

The Lord of the Ascendant in Corde Solis, or within one degree of the Sun in the eleventh, and free from evil, and from the afflictions of Saturn and Mars, thou mayest take him in hand, if the Lord of the Ascendant be velox cursu, and will be ruled so so.

If the Lord of the Ascendant be in the Ascendant, in his own House, in the Sign of the Ascendant, not remote, as Venus in Libra, and at a full sextile to Saturn in Leo in the tenth, being Lord of the fifth, the Cause of the Disease was thought taken for one she loved, which forsook her.

If the Lord of the Ascendant Lord of the sixth or twelfth, in Aries, Taurus, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Pisces, or Capricorn and in the 7th, 10th, or Ascendant, and apply to Mars, Mercury, Venus, Sun, being in any of the aforesaid Signs, by conjunction, sextile, or trine, being in the tenth, eleventh, seventh, fifth, or Third houses, then the Party and the whole stream of his desires run after the lusts of the flesh, and much use of women, and the deisre thereof is the cause of His or Her Disease, and these Signs do signifie much Lechery, and do cause revulsion of Nature, and Gonorrhea passio, with heat of the Reins, and burning of the Urine.

If one planet be Lord of the Ascendant, and also Lord of the sixth, as Mars in Taurus, and in the seventh or sixth, it signifieth the Party was the cause of his own Disease, especially if the Moon apply to that Planet. . ."

Hope this helps!

Warmly,

Pam