Hi all


i am reading "The Horary Textbook" and I am confused with the term that Frawleys use, according to his table
longest
Sign fixed
House Angular

However What will happen if a planet is on angular house and perfect an aspect, than timing is longest and or they can act quickly?

but what will happen if there are no aspect but mutual reception
querent in Lord 10 fixed sign and angular
and Lord 10 in mutable sign and succedent, is this what Frawley's mean

what about the moon? if tought the moon can indicate the timing as regards to her applying aspect

Hi, Zohra.

I'm sorry I really can't clear up anything that Frawley says about timing, because I don't have his book.

However, I can give you a few observations from Lilly's Christian Astrology

Lilly gave the most rapid motion (in terms of timing when a predicted event would take place) to planets that were in moveable signs: Aries, Cancer, Libra, or Capricorn. A little slower were planets in common signs:
Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius or Pisces. The slowest still were planets in fixed signs: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius.

As to "accidental dignity", or where the planets are placed on the chart:
in his first chart example, Lilly is addressing a question which involves the length of the querent's life. He reads the significators on angles to mean longer life.

In a chart example immediately following (one about a ship at sea), he reads the significators on angles as bringing about an event more rapidly.

This is because the planets on angles, when they are significators, are able to act more powerfully. In the first example, they were more powerful to sustain or prolong life; in the second, they were more powerful to bring an event to conclusion rapidly.

Asking about length of life is really the sort of question that must be answered in a negative form. You will not die. . . within this time frame.
Death would be a negative event which would involve a weakened significator "under attack". If the significators of the querent are on angles, the querent is strengthened and his life is longer as a result.

Angles mean "longer?", yes. If longer is what you want. We are talking about a significator
1) of a querent
2) that is in an aspect to another significator which will produce the desired outcome;
3) reception between the two planets and some essential dignity is needed, with a few exceptions.

Angles mean "shorter", yes. If shorter is what you want. Same rules as above.

Planets on angles are simply more powerful to act.
That is my understanding, as well as what I have seen in practice.

what about the moon? if tought the moon can indicate the timing as regards to her applying aspect

If the Moon is the signficator of the querent which meets all the (1,2,3) conditions above, yes.

Otherwise, the Moon can time the chart in a general sense. All the planets she separates from describe events which are now past. The planets she applies to describe events which are future.

Hope this is helpful!

Warmest regards,

Pam

All questions of timing have three possible responses: short, medium and long. By itself, that isn't too helpful. We have to have a context. This is usually supplied by the querent. So if the question is, "Will I hear from my uncle and if so when? We need to know how often does the querent usually hear from the uncle or what reason the querent might have to believe that a call from the uncle is about to occur.

Starting with the shortest possible time period the three possibilities are seconds, minutes, and hours. Is it feasible that the querent will hear from the uncle in any of the those time periods? Probably not. From there we can go to hours, days, weeks or days weeks months, or weeks months years. What is it that is likely? If the querent usually hears from the uncle every few months and hasn't heard from the uncle in 4 months, then days would be shortest, weeks next then months would be longest.

However What will happen if a planet is on angular house and perfect an aspect, than timing is longest and or they can act quickly?

You have to blend the various bits of information. Angles are slowest, so if the significators are about to perfect (indicating the uncle will call) and they are in angular houses and fixed signs, and four degrees before perfection, then the call will occur in four somethings: four days, weeks, or months. The longest period is months and since the planets are in angular houses and fixed signs then the answer is four months. If they were in sextile and one planet is in a fixed sign and angular and the other planet were sextile and in a cadent house and cardinal, this would be a blend of fastest and slowest, so we pick the middle ground - four weeks.

If both planets are about to join by conjunction in a cadent house and cardinal signs, this is the fastest possibility, so we would say four days.

but what will happen if there are no aspect but mutual reception
querent in Lord 10 fixed sign and angular and Lord 10 in mutable sign and succedent, is this what Frawley's mean

John teaches that

1) Dignity shows the power to act
2) Reception shows the inclination to act
3) Aspect shows the occasion to act.

Therefore, if there is no aspect, regardless of mutual reception, there is no occasion to act and there is nothing to time as nothing will happen.

I hope this helps.

Tom

Angles are slowest,

Per Frawley, n'est-ce pas? Lilly explains his timing of a chart on page 163 of CA, below. I just take Lilly's thoughts about the angles differently than Frawley does, I guess.

"Because the Moon [in Taurus in the eleventh] applied to a trine of Mercury and Sun, [in Capricorn] and they in an angle, and was herself as well as they [both peregrine, and Mercury combust the Sun], very swift in motion and did want but a few minutes of a perfect trine; I judged there would be news or letters or a certain discovery of the ship in a very short time; the significators so near aspect I said either that night, or in two days; and so it proved. . ."

[Italics and brackets mine]

If planets in angles take longer to show results, I'm not sure why cardinal planets+angular significators trined by a fixed Moon in a succeedant house produce such quick results as in Lilly's example. No way do peregrine and combust significators show "as well as" a Moon in exaltation. It seems to me the equivalency must derive from their accidental dignity in the seventh house. Or perhaps it is the speed of the planets? This is a factor we have not yet discussed with regard to timing.

So far, I'm not really following Frawley on this one. I suppose I am limited, since the only horary source I have had acess to is Lilly.

Therefore, if there is no aspect, regardless of mutual reception, there is no occasion to act and there is nothing to time as nothing will happen.

I'd say I agree with Frawley here with the rare exception: antiscion. In the charts I have read, I have yet to see an aspect required with perfection by antiscion.

Tom, would you say Frawley was a modern astrologer, or a traditional one? It seems he builds on Lilly, but does he bring in his own techniques as well? Is that modern astrology, or traditional, in your opinion?

Best wishes,

Pam

Tom,

I usually don't disagree with anything you say, and this is slightly off the question about timing, but I do believe that you can get perfection just through reception and you certainly can get perfection just by the emplacement of one of the significators in the right house. I don't have the time right now, but I am sure that Lilly talks about this in CA, Book II, in the section about reception.

I've seen charts where you get a yes answer just by the place of the significator, with no aspect between them. A few years ago I asked a question about whether I'd get to go on this trip to Scotland, and my significator was in the 9th house, which showed me going overseas. There was no aspect but there was perfection. There also would be no way to time this, but in a sense I didn't need to know that. I knew when the trip was scheduled. All I wanted to know was whether I'd be selected to go on it.

Thank you for your effort to clarify "Volition". It seems they are various theories in horary astrology and the understanding of timing will be to evidence horary charts and applying the authors' knowledges in order to evidence the judgement of timing and balancing all considerations and possibilities.


My concern is when judgement of timing provide us to many contradicting answers, and yet with our best abilities, doubts arise. As we use Ephemeris to locate an aspect, can the concept of transits provide us the timing units.?

Hi, RC

Tradtionally speaking, no, we would not use transits.

Lilly says of timing the chart, "Abs te a scienta." From you, and from science. You have to take the information you are given, what you know about the particulars of it, together with the rules for timing, to arrive at a conclusion.

The best teacher in this matter is experience. Or, should I say, let the stars be your guide. Do some charts for practice. Make predictions about timing as often as you can, and follow up with the querent to see what happens. Take notes on all the charts you make predictions for, so you can remember why you used the timing you did. Write down the outcomes on the charts as well. I keep mine in a spiral notebook, so I can carry it with me and the charts are always together. They are also chronological, which I like. That way as I review the notebook I can watch the stars progress through their movements and signs, and note their significations by houses and what they mean.

Rules are only half of it (scienta). You have to apply yourself to your art to develop the other half (te).

Best wishes,

Pam

Hi, Zohra

I finally found the passage I was looking for in Lilly. It turns out I was mistaken: Frawley is hand in hand with Lilly on the point of angles taking longer to perfect. My apologies!

I've been looking for this for a week, and finally I found it. My poor softback CA is falling apart. Sigh. My sincere apologies for the misinformation above. . . I will quote the passage below.

From CA, p. 175:

After outlining the rules for perfection, reception, etc., Lilly goes on:

". . .you may answer that it shall be for as many days as are the number of degrees betwixt the Significators, if they both be in Cadent houses: if they be in succeedant houses of heaven, it will be so many weeks: if in Angles, the time will be so many months: but herein the Astrologer must use discretion, and consider if it be possible that the matter enquired of may be effected in days, weeks, or months; for if it be a business that may require much time, instead of months you may add years, and this especially if the Lord of the Ascendant, the Moon and other significators be in Angles; but if one planet be in an Angle, and the other in a Succeedant, then they shall denote months; but if one be in a Succeedant and the other in a Cadent, then they shall denote weeks; but if one be in an angle, and the other in a Cadent house, they prenote months."

I stand corrected!

Warmest regards,

Pam

thank you for your information, it does make some sense of all this puzzle. I am going backward to read all your comments to ensure i have understood the theory

Angles are slowest,

I was taught the precise opposite, that Angles are fastest.

Deb teaches in her course that:

Angular houses are 'happening', they cause events to materialise quickly.
Succedent houses offer a more intermediate time frame.
Cadent houses lack vibrancy. The event is either not happening at all or progressing so slowly that everyone will despair of it.

And Lilly says (CA,p.125)

when as you find the lord of the Ascendant, and lord of that house which signifies the thing demanded, hastening to a conjunction, and in the first house, or in any angle... you may then judge, that the thing sought after shall be brought to pass without ... impediment ... but if this conjunction of the significators be in a succedant house, it will be perfected but not as soon: if in cadent houses, with infinite loss of time ... [/i]"

And on p.110, Lilly says,

The two significators in moveable Signs, angular and swift in motion, does hasten the times; in common Signs, the time will be more long; in fixed a longer space of time will be required.

Tara

The problem could be with difference between conjunction and other aspects.
Feels like "deja vu all over again"
But, Is conjunction an aspect?
Conjuction involving angles is fast, other aspects involving angles- slow.

PD