Anna

i dont know about you but i am very fed up with this "nazi this"
"nazi that" .. Nazi did not start this craze. Astrology has been around the govt since beginning of times. look at Egypt and babylon.. not even mentioning alexander the great.. if anyone ever bring up astrology and nazis .. tell them that most prominent people scientists like Newton were practicing astrology not even mentioning kings/queens/presidents/fbi/cia/secret services.

Ronald Reagan had his own personal astrologer on staff
I forgot who but one of the founding fathers was an astrologer himself.

Wikipedia has errors.

cheers
CD

Ronald Reagan had his own personal astrologer on staff
I forgot who but one of the founding fathers was an astrologer himself.

I don't believe President Reagan had an astrologer "on staff." Nancy Reagan did consult with astrologer Joan Quigly regarding her husband's schedules. At least that's what she said she did after the cat got out of the bag. When an angry White House staffer was fired (I've forgotten his name) he let it out that Nancy "believed in" astrology. Naturally this was ammo for the President's enemies (which, of course was the purpose of the "revelation") and all sorts of stories circulated about the President, his mental state and how his superstitions were dangerous blah, blah, blah.

However, in her book Secret's From a Stargazer's Notebook, Debbie Kempton Smith noted that Ronald Reagan did use astrology and kept others off balance by giving out different birth times. Smith's book was written, I think, in 1982 (can't put my hands on my copy at the moment) prior to the Nancy Reagan astrology flap. Keep in mind his enemies called him the Teflon President.

Benjamin Franklin has been "accused" of being an astrologer, but I don't know that any strong evidence exists to support that. He did have an astrology column in his famous Poor Richard's Almanac, but that was expected in his day. There was very little astrology in the US in the 18th century - at least of the kind that we would consider serious astrology. I would not discount an interest in astrology by Franklin, however. He was well travelled, and possessed of an unusually curious and brilliant mind. He may well have been attracted to the study at some time in his life.

As for the astrologer's in Nazi Germany, I've always been suspicious of stories of the rounding up and deportation and extermination of astrologers anywhere at least in modern times. It seems to me that no one takes it seriously enough to be concerned about it much less considering it threatening enough to marshal the powers of the state against it.

In issue 16 of The Traditional Astrologer Magazine, a section of Derek Parker's History of astrology is quoted regarding Karl Kraft. In it, circumstances are cited that Parker believes gave the Nazis an "excuse (did Nazi's need an excuse to do anything?)" to clamp down on astrologers and he further claimed a bunch of them got rounded up and shipped to concentration camps. How do they know where to find them? Who qualified as worthy of extermination? Did the go to the 1930s German equivalent of Nadej Sees All Knows All?

I'm sure there were astrologers among the persecuted and murdered and I do not mean to make light of anyone's plight in that place and time. I only wonder if astrologers are too quick to find some kind of romance in being (safely) a part of a once persecuted group. Did Hitler care about astrologers at all except possibly as a propaganda tool? Were astrologer's predictions so accurate and credible that the Third Reich had more to fear from them than Allied bombers? Was Hitler that paranoid? OK maybe this last deserves a "yes." Still I find it hard to believe that astrologers occupied that much of the time and efforts of Germany at this time.

For the record the word "Nazi" I believe originated in the English Language, possibly America, as a corruption of the phrase perhaps as it is pronounced in German "National Socialism." They called themselves "Fascists."

Tom

Tom,

In his book The Round Art Tadd (A.T) Man has a very good analysis of Hitler's life using Solar Arcs. Hitler was a frustrated painter - his father did not want his son to be an artist - might have been a whole lot better if he had supported this acreer choice.

The swasticker is the ' cross in motion' .

Julie K

Thanks Tom,

I cant see a time of birth in this article. It states 'Hitler's mother was the neice of her husband' and was 23 years younger than him. The set up sounds like a mind field psychologically. Freud no doubt would have had a picnic with this.

Julie K

Tom

the US govt up till early 1990s had psychic spy dep so ANYTHING is possible.

as far as Nazis, Hitler at age 30 changed the name of the group to the National Socialist German Worker's Party, or shortened to ?Nazi? from the German words National-sozialistische.

Besides Franklin, there was another guy who actually studied astrology i cannot remember who. I know he was connected or one of the founding fathers.

look at this way, in 18th century the world was going through scientific enlightment and at the same time Puritans were quite visible. I dont think anyone would risk putting astrology in the center of attention.. but what do i know? i am just going by logic

His source of mental problems began when he began seeing his father beating his mother. After his mother's death, he moved to all men's hotel where he was having sex with other men. so who knows what he contracted there.

good post!

Julie

in 1933, someone in UK did profiling on Hitler. It was aired on history channel a few months ago...It turned out to be very accurate. His family has been plagued with mental diseases plus Hitler was abused when he was a kid not even mentioning that he was addicted to some kind of drugs. His sister Paula was killed by Hitler's orders because in Hitler's eyes, she was not Arian because of her mental desease. He burned down his own birth city to erase all history of his family.

cheers
CD

@ Tom,

"For the record the word "Nazi" I believe originated in the English Language, possibly America, as a corruption of the phrase perhaps as it is pronounced in German "National Socialism." They called themselves "Fascists." "

It has not much to do with astrology, so just a few words:
The Word"Nazi" was widely used in Germany - years before Hitler came into power.
The Nazis never called themselves "Fascists". "Fascists" were the supporters of Mussolini. Mussolini's Fascism was terrible, but Hitler's regime was much worse. So National Socialism should never be termed "Fascism". No Italian would ever do so - Italians take offence when Hitler is called a "Fascist" - and they are right.
LL

@cosmicdolphin

"His sister Paula was killed by Hitler's orders because in Hitler's eyes, she was not Arian because of her mental desease. "

I'm afraid this is just one more of the many, many made- up stories (which seem to be popular especially in Britain and the USA).
Paula survived Hitler. He avoided meeting her, but she lived on the basis of a pension she got from him.
LL

Lumuno

okay it is not Paula.. someone was mentally ill and was placed in mental hospital then killed by Hitler's orders

i should wwatch hitler's channell more often
oops i mean history channel

CD

the US govt up till early 1990s had psychic spy dep so ANYTHING is possible.

I find this a little hard to believe. What is often the case with stories like this is that we find something in government with a legitimate reason for being and their purpose becomes distorted by rumor or misunderstandings. The Air Force Project Bluebook is the best known example. Just what is a "psychic spy" department anyway? I also find it hard to believe that the US government ever did away with any department. In the 1930s a department was established to find ways to bring telephone service to rural areas that lacked it. This department continued to exist until quite recently despite improvements in service, and the invention of the cell phone. Governments rarely shrink.

It has not much to do with astrology, so just a few words:
The Word"Nazi" was widely used in Germany - years before Hitler came into power.

True. What I should have done is look this up before I ran my mouth. From the Online Etymology Dictionary:

1930, from Ger. Nazi, abbreviation of Ger. pronunciation of Nationalsozialist (based on earlier Ger. sozi, popular abbreviaton of "socialist"), from Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei "National Socialist German Workers' Party," led by Hitler from 1920. The 24th edition of Etymologisches W?rterbuch der deutschen Sprache (2002) says the word Nazi was favored in southern Germany (supposedly from c.1924) among opponents of National Socialism because the nickname Nazi (from the masc. proper name Ignatz, Ger. form of Ignatius) was used colloquially to mean "a foolish person, clumsy or awkward person." Ignatz was a popular name in Catholic Austria, and according to one source in WWI Nazi was a generic name in the German Empire for the soldiers of Austria-Hungary. An older use of Nazi for national-sozial is attested in Ger. from 1903, but EWdS does not think it contributed to the word as applied to Hitler and his followers. The NSDAP for a time attempted to adopt the Nazi designation as what the Germans call a "despite-word," but they gave this up, and the NSDAP is said to have generally avoided the term. Before 1930, party members had been called in Eng. National Socialists, which dates from 1923. The use of Nazi Germany, Nazi regime, etc., was popularized by German exiles abroad. From them, it spread into other languages, and eventually brought back to Germany, after the war. In the USSR, the terms national socialist and Nazi were said to have been forbidden after 1932, presumably to avoid any taint to the good word socialist. Soviet literature refers to fascists.

My incorrect statement must have come from a faulty memory regarding Germans living abroad that introduced the word.

look at this way, in 18th century the world was going through scientific enlightment and at the same time Puritans were quite visible. I dont think anyone would risk putting astrology in the center of attention.. but what do i know? i am just going by logic

We're probably all better off going by history. Traditional astrologers, and I do this, too, often mark the end of traditional astrology at the arbitrary year 1700 or the beginning of the 18th century. It was on its way out before that date, but with a couple of exceptions the better astrologers were gone and a new model of the universe was replacing the old. However there wasn't much old in what would become the US in 1700. The fact is the first English settlers in Virginia came in 1607 and Massachusetts was settled in 1620. Prior to that there were a few Spanish settlements in Florida and the rest was wilderness. There was no astrological tradition in the US largely because prior to the scientific revolution there was no US or at least not much of what would become the USA.

Robert Zoller wrote a paper in which he referenced a Connecticut woman who practiced astrology in the 17th century and claimed to be taught by William Lilly. This is chronologically possible, but other than the particular historical society's claim, I don't know of any other evidence that this is true. American astrology can be traced to Luke Broughton who came to the US from England in the 1850s. Before that there wasn't much.

Virtually if not literally all the Founding Father's were born after 1700. Washington was born in 1732 for example. Jefferson was younger still. Franklin is the only Founding Father whose name I've seen attached to astrology. If there is an astrology student among the Founders, I would look to those who travelled to Europe during their lifetime. I can't think of any other place they would have learned it. Books were expensive and hard to find. Franklin and his friends often complained of the lack of books available to them. This situation led to Franklin developing what would become the Free Public Library system. Jefferson, like Franklin was a Renaissance man and a potential candidate, but TJs personality, as I understand it, doesn't seem astrology-like, but that isn't much of an argument.

As for the contemporary astrologer's favorite subject, Adolph Hitler, I agree there are more legends and stories about this man than can be traced down. Who can really be sure about the source of his madness? I only mentioned Kolev's story because it worked with Kolev's astrological symbolism. I wouldn't know if it is true or not.

Personally I've been "Hitlered" to death. He's gone from the personification of evil to the Devil incarnate, and yet compared to his contemporaries, Stalin and Mao, he was a relative piker in the murder game. I once requested at a fledgling astrology group that was forming that we make it a bylaw never to discuss Hitler's chart. There are as many screwball stories about him as there are about the JFK assassination. Everyone laughed at my suggestion and I was overruled.

Tom

Tom,

I noted you are 'Hitlered' to death! What came out of this subject was how very 'Hitlerian' the posts became. I wont mention him again!

Julie K

By one of those synchronistic coincidences this thread has developed as I have been working on a reproduction of ?Zodiac & Swastika? by Wilhelm Wulff ?Astrologer to Himmler?s Court?. I have been planning to reproduce the full text over 3 parts, with the first part appearing as one of this month?s updates. Unfortunately this month?s updates have been delayed so I only have two introductory chapters online so far ? the Foreword and the Introduction. Even these will be of great interest to anyone reading this thread. You can see the material at skyscript.co.uk/wulffF.html

The text comes from an astrologer who lived and worked through the period, and his account is illuminating. It is an important text for anyone considering the pressures put upon astrologers during times of conflict or warfare. Lilly, for example, often gets a bad press for issuing political propaganda, even though his was ? by usual standards ? relatively fair and moderate. When we consider the role that astrologers played during World War II, we might start to understand how the ?threat of the enemy? can make an astrologer prepared to compromise personal conviction for the sake of soldiers whose lives are being lost. The Foreword of this text explains how both the Germans and the allies published edited editions of the predictions of Nostradamus, in such a way as to make it clear that victory was assured to their own side. What do you think of this? If you had been called upon to help the war effort defeat Hitler, would you have done the same?

This text also explains something of why the Nazis were supposed to be opposed to astrology, and yet relied on it for guidance ? especially towards the end of the war when they faced the most insecurity (this, in itself, is an interesting fact ? that astrological popularity feeds on insecurity). The issue was not about whether astrology was credible, but that it presented an ideological clash to Nazism:

The Nazis took a dim view of astrology, which was suspect both for its Oriental origins and its universalist character; horoscopes that did not differentiate between Aryans and non-Aryans, between higher and inferior races could not possibly be accepted.

Nonetheless, it WAS recognised as having a great value in propaganda, and it WAS used to guide the actions of high ranking SS officers.

Treat the general approach to astrology in the Foreword with some caution, as presumptions are made there which are explained very differently in Wulff?s own account. But note the reference to the astrological advice given to Burmese rulers at that time. Co-incidentally, the Daily Express today (Sept 26, p.12) made a reference to astrologers advising the regime?s leader, as if astrologers are in some way responsible for directing the course of events there:

Harbouring a strong interest in the occult and often consulting his astrologer, the regime?s taciturn leader General Than Shwe may be a difficult man to understand.

Comments like this make it easy to understand how public emotion is readily whipped up against certain factions of society. And when that emotion needs a target for pain and hatred, it becomes deadly. Wulff lived through this experience, so his narrative is invaluable. Yet it brings some disquieting realities and bursts a few myths. Contrary to what cosmicdolphin wrote earlier in the thread, Karl Ernest Krafft did not die in a gas chamber, but he did die of Typhus whilst in a concentration camp. A great many astrologers were sent to concentration camps, but most were released after a few months. That does not detract from the very dangerous position they were in, or from the sympathy they deserve, but the story of Krafft has become quite one-sided. Wulff, whose account is regarded as historically sound, reports that Krafft had an ?uncritical admiration for the Nazis? and hoped to flourish under their regime. He would have ?liked nothing better than to have met and worked for Hitler?. Krafft was a victim of Hitler?s regime, yet it was a regime that he supported, admired and initially helped to bring to power. Did he realise, at that time, the persecution that others would suffer? It is hard to believe that any astrologer would support persecution on racial grounds but either he did, or he illustrates how persuasive Nazi ideology was at that place and time.

I will add more chapters of this text to the site as and when I can, and will place notices of updates on this thread. I hope it proves useful to those who wanted more information on this topic.