Yes, this clause is only a part of a larger structure that begins with sique. It is a complete sub-sentence. That is why I interpret that as (a rough word-to-word version) "if either the Part or its ruler is residing with the Lord of Ascendant, in the same time with somewhat testimony of the place". There could be more refinement, but sadly I do not feel enough competence in English to elaborate this translation as to exclude the problem of different understanding.

Hi Sasha_i,

Hi Sigma,

I followed the link you gaved in order to make some researches.
I notice they are speaking about "1:00 GMT+2:00, 19/1/1976", so the local hour of his birth is 3 (AM or Pm? I couldn't tell from the text) not 1 as you mentioned.

No! I think he gives it as the local time and also additionally gives the GMT reference so that people can know what that local hour refers to by absolute time.

Because Greece is 2 hours to the east of Greenwich, he must be born 2 hours before the local time, that is at 23:00 (e.g 11:00 PM) GMT+0:00 hr of 18/1/1976.

And this refers to 26d37m Libra.

Anyway I will go on with this as it also perfectly matches the significations.

....and I also sent an e-mail to Evangelos asking him to confirm his birth time to be sure.

Osthanesa and Sasha_i,

I don't know if it is legitimate in terms of translation from Latin as I don't know Latin, but I think it makes perfect sense both logically and astrologically if it is possible to re-write the texts below by simply replacing the "or" by "even more so if.." as follows:


1) Your first translation: "...eloquence and wisdom if either the Part itself or its ruler resides together with the lord of Ascendant, and in the same time, there is another testimony from [their] place."

Could this be as:


"...if either the Part itself or its ruler resides together with the lord of Ascendant, EVEN MORE SO IF there is another testimony from [their] place.

As you also logically pointed out in some other post:

"...The clause says something like "equally/together with any testimony of place" where "testimony" must mean "dignity" and "place" can be interpreted as a place on the zodiac, that is, a sign or a degree. As I see it, the easiest way to treat this somewhat obscure passage as reception (in the astrological sense), that is, having dignity in its sign/degree, the Lord of Ascendant receives the Part or its ruler that can corroborate the indications for high intelligence further..."

2) Dykes: "...Which if this Part were well disposed in someone's nativity, and it or the Lord of the domicile in which it is, were with the Lord of the Ascendant, or the Lord of the Ascendant were to aspect [the Lord of the Part] in his own dignity..."

would make more sense if re-written or understood as :

"...Which if this Part were well disposed in someone's nativity, and it or the Lord of the domicile in which it is, were with the Lord of the Ascendant, OR EVEN BETTER IF the Lord of the Ascendant were to aspect [the Lord of the Part OR THE PART] in his own dignity..."

In other words, "...if the lord of the ascendant were to RECEIVE the Part or its lord [into his dignity]..."

Otherwise the second sentence starting with "or" becomes an unnecessary repetition of the first one.

Because, clearly;


If the Lord of the domicile in which it [the Part] is, were with the Lord of the ascendant = or the Lord of the Ascendant were to aspect [the Lord of the Part]

Does this sound plausible?

Sigma

Osthanes wrote:Yes, this clause is only a part of a larger structure that begins with sique.
....There could be more refinement, but sadly I do not feel enough competence in English to elaborate this translation as to exclude the problem of different understanding.

one thing is very sure for me that the text is not quite the perfect latin that we learned in school. it seems for me that the one that translated in latin either had a problem with artabic language either with latin. for example we all know that normaly the predicate is at the end of the clause, which is not the case here

Sigma,

Does this sound plausible?

For me it's clear that the author intention was to reveal the importance of connection between the elements of the part of reasoning: part itself, the lord of part, lord of Asc, Mercury, Mars.
if we can find any kind of good connection between these elements in chart then we can obtain also a good conlusion to our inquire.

There is another thing that I must say. From the book 8 chapter 1,, where Abumashar speakes about the reason of parts, result that the calculation of parts is particularly important when the elements involved (I am refering to the planets, in our case Mars and Mercury) have similar virtues, or there is a debate between their significance, and we want to get a clear picture of the thing we are inquiring (in our case the mental faculty), to establish the key element over this issue, which then to be interpreted. so the part would be a result of the combination of the element but also an indication of the element that is more prominent in this issue (mental faculty).

so the part would be a result of the combination of the element but also an indication of the element that is more prominent in this issue (mental faculty).

Yes, of course. Both the condition of Mercury and Mars and their relation to the Part and its ruler(s), and asc and its ruler(s) is important.

In my sample for instance, those who have more aspects to the Part and/or asc rulers are more intelligent. Tighter orbs work in favor as expected by theory. Even the aspectual relation between Mercury and Mars or mutual reception between them have good effect.

Sigma

Continued from Example-1

2) Part of Reasoning is at 19d02m Gemini in the 8th quadrant (Alcabitius) house and 9th whole-sign house

Rulers are: Mercury (domicile and triplicity = almuten), Mars (quasi-major ruler = dignity of bound and face), Saturn (secondary triplicity ruler for nocturnal nativity), Jupiter (participating triplicity ruler)

a) Aspects of the Part's rulers to the Part (receptions):

- Mercury receives the Part by a whole-sign trine
- Mars conjunct the Part within 5 degree
- Jupiter sextile the Part with a tight orb

As far as the arabic lots are concerned the Part's being received by its rulers, especially if it is a major ruler, is very important and this, according to Bonatti, contributes more than other planets in the play.


b) Other Aspects :

- Moon sextile the Part with a tight orb
- Venus (ruler of the Asc) opposition the Part with a tight orb

Although the Part's house position is mediocre all planets except the Sun and Saturn aspect the Part. This makes the Part very active and one of the focal points in the chart. The part is well disposed, so to speak, as it is well received by its rulers. Of the planets aspecting the Part, Mars is very important as it is conjunct (powerful effect) and Mars, being one of the components of the Part, is the significator of "sharpness" and it is disposed by Mercury, which is the universal significator of intelligence.

3) Condition of Mercury and Mars

a) Mercury:

Mercury has the dignity of triplicity at 7d11m Aquarius so is fortunate; angular in the 4th house, so strong; but retrograde so afflicted. But it both aspects the Part albeit by a whole-sign trine and receives one quasi-major ruler (Mars) into his domicile dignity and itself is received by Saturn (almuten of the Ascendant) by opposition within orb, and by Venus (Lord of the Asc) by a whole-sign sextile by bound and face. Overall, Mercury is fairly good, if not excellent, and quite serves his purpose for the native in question by satisfying the criteria given in the definition of the Part.

b) Mars:

Mars, as being the quasi-major ruler at the location of the Part, receives the Part by conjunction into his dignities (bound and face). This is almost excellent for several reasons:

- Mars is dignified
- Mars is disposed by Mercury and received by it by a trine
- Mars is conjunct the Part (very beneficial for sharpness)
- Mars is mediocre by house position and impeded by retrograde

furthermore,

- Mars is in aspect (opposition) with Venus, Lord of the Ascendant,
- Mars is sextile Jupiter (triplicity ruler of both the ascendant and the Part, also the face ruler of the ascendant) also receiving him into his domicile in Aries,
- Mars is sextile the Moon, significator of perceptive mind and memory.

So, overall, Mars is very active by being multi-aspected with relevant rulers mostly by receptions and good aspects causing very high cognitive ability.

- End of delineation -

Sigma

Newton's birth time is uncertain. It is sometimes helpful to make use of arabic parts in rectification, albeit as a gross approximation.

Taking into consideration of the footnote given with his chart (see: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/newtonchart.html) and seeing the chart given there (25 December 1642 OS, Woolsthorpe, 01:39 hr GMT +0:00) does not conform to the criteria of the Part of Reasoning for an intellectual of Newton's caliber, I took the one that is exactly one hour ahead by Solar Fire: 25 December 1642 OS, 02:39 hr GMT +0:00.

The ascendant then becomes 6 degrees 5 minutes Scorpio, which, in my opinion, fits far better than Libra for a secretive man like Newton to start with; a man, who dedicated his entire life to exploring the secrets of the universe.

As I haven't checked it out rigorously yet except for a few quick tests with firdaria and profections that seemed fine and promising, I am not sure if this new chart fits better to his life events. But the Part of Reasoning certainly describes his genius much better, indicating that he might have been born two hours (not one hour) after midnight as stated as a possibility in the reference.

For this new chart, the Part of Reasoning is at 19 degrees 32 minutes Gemini (PR = Asc + Mercury - Mars for a nocturnal nativity).

Domicile ruler of the Part is Mercury and it receives the Part albeit by a tight opposition. Similarly other rulers, Saturn and Jupiter, both being triplicity rulers of Gemini aspects the Part by square. The Part is well-disposed and active for it is aspected by its three rulers.

Venus, one of the triplicity rulers at the ascendant casts her whole-sign trine to the Part.

Mercury is in aspect with the significators too:

- opposite the Part
- sextile Venus (triplicity ruler of the Asc)
- square Jupiter and Saturn (both being the triplicity rulers of the Part)

Finally, Mars receives the Asc by a tight opposition (so aspecting the ascendant), and is sextile to the Moon (trip. ruler of the Asc) and to Jupiter (trip. ruler of the Part).

If this birth time is correct, it is interesting to note another similarity: Location of the part of Reasoning is exactly the same for both Newton and Dr.Katsioulis!..

I will appreciate any comments.

Sigma

Hello,

For your information (Sasha in particular), Dr.Evangelos confirmed to me by an e-mail his birth time to be 01:00 a.m as local hour; so my delineation is based on a correct hour.

Just a couple of minutes ago I have also added a new delineation.

See: http://astro-genius.blogspot.com/

I will not keep posting here about the subject as I have already given the link. But for those who might be interested in the subject I'd like to announce that similar sample delineations about pre-eminent geniuses as well as intelligent people from high IQ societies will be added occasionally as my time permits (First candidates as historical geniuses are Albert Einstein, Nicola Tesla, L.Da Vinci and John Nash to name a few.)

I will also present some statistical reports when enough data accumulates.

As I'm seriously pursuing the matter I will be grateful if anyone, who runs across, or already possesses some useful information from classical/traditional texts [in English] that s/he thinks relevant, notify or advise me about it.

Thanks and regards.