This post was in the Tense chart thread, but it?s best in its own thread. It is the result of my strong dislike of the statement ?Always use Regiomontans House system with Horary.? My initial comments are still in that thread. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

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The Regiomontanus issue is a good example of herd mentality. A year ago, in a discussion here of Whole Sign houses, I was told that since Regiomontanus was one of the two most popular systems it obviously must work. End of discussion. (The Whole Sign system wasn?t going over well.) It was also here on this website that it was decided to use Regio in discussions to simplify things by having everyone use the same house cusps. Now there?s a good reason for Regio?s popularity: ?the group?. Regiomontanus wins through common usage to make things easier for group discussions. Accuracy is not an issue. It?s also at this website where you pretty much never see discussion of using other house systems for horary. Ever notice that? In the General, Mundane and Traditional forums here other systems come up quite frequently. The horary crowd has successfully managed to stop most discussion of other house systems. Yet the Horary forum would be the perfect place for studying and discussing the various house systems and their possible use in horary astrology ? in other words, to find if something else might work better. Horary discussions could investigate ?Is this the house system for me?? rather than ?Is this the man for me??. Imagine that! The horary forum would be much less painful to visit.

It would be interesting to know how people are approaching the matter of trying out various house division systems. Some people, as they investigate a matter, dive in and make a thorough project of it ? carefully checking and recording results before coming to a conclusion. Others just sort of putter around ? a little this way and a little that way. A glance here and a glance there, and then the verdict: ?Method A works best for me?. When it comes to trying out the house division systems most of us are in the latter group (I have been). Some of us have carefully checked things out; many of us have dabbled.

In horary Regiomontanus is Method A. Most people do experiment with other systems at some point, but how thoroughly are they doing it? An unorganized flip-flopping between systems isn?t good enough. Skimming the surface with another system proves nothing. Yet it?s so easy to go back and claim Regiomontanus as superior because we can then align ourselves with Lilly and other past and present ?stars? of horary astrology who reputedly have such an impressive horary record. Maybe the ultimate answer is more complex: Regiomontanus might be best for lost items; Placidus or another might be best for relationship horaries. We don?t know, because few astrologers and students have carefully and thoroughly studied the issue and left good documentation of system comparison results. And then there are those who simply convince themselves that Regio works best for them so that they can go with the flow and join the online discussion group, or somehow tap into the abilities of Lilly or a teacher.

Hi, Kirk

I am the last person to support conformity for conformity's sake. In the instance of Regiomontanus houses, however, I have tested them against Placidus methodically. I found Regiomontanus house cusps to consistently provide more information of significance to the charts I was reading. This was especially noticable in lost object questions, but I think that may be because we make specific use of the cusps in these questions, and their significance becomes such a concrete demonstration of Regiomontanus' superiority.

Deb has clarified that there is no policy requiring the use of Regiomontanus houses on this list, below. Thanks, Deb. . . my irrelevant points on the advantages of conceding to the use of Regiomontanus houses when posting on the list follow. So please take them as an excercise in defense of Regiomontanus, and with a grain of salt, since (my apologies) they are not pertinent to list policy:

There is a point which underlies the Regiomontanus question. I don't think group members are necessarily inclined to engage in a showdown between modern and traditional techniques, so I don't propose as a solution that we collectively compare the accuracy of traditional vs. modern results on the same question--although it might be interesting to do so. But leaving that aside, if modern techniques permit the use of different house systems for different types of questions, as you proposed in your example, it does not mean that traditional techniques are equally flexible. Unless we want to confound the use of traditional astrology on the list, since modern is more flexible, then it is modern astrology which will have to concede to the more structured needs of traditional techniques.

The main argument for using Regiomontanus is that the clearest, most comprehensive, and most accurate instructions we have for horary astrology in the English language use Regiomontanus houses. Imagine the chaos if we as students did not follow the same house system as the author of the instruction book. Poor Deb would have to post a conversion table for each chapter of Christian Astrology showing Regiomontanus compared to all the other house systems so we could extrapolate how to apply Christian Astrology to Placidus, Koch, etc. Hmmm. . . she would need to work out some calculations for adjusting differences in cusps between the houses by time of day, according to the Sun's proximity to the equinoxes or solstices. . . I bet she wouldn't do it. *Wink* Not because she isn't brilliant enough. But because it is unnecessary. We can just agree to adopt a house system that coincides with our instructions.

I think it is a great boon to all of our list members to concede to Regiomontanus because it is quite confusing to discuss the same chart with list members using several different house systems. Unless the purpose of the list is to spawn confusion and rather pointless disagreements, the use of multiple chart systems does not seem fruitful.

If everyone on the list who spoke a language other than English started to contribute in their language of choice, we would have a more spontaneous and a more intriguing list; however, we would communicate with all of our members less effectively. A common language solves a lot of communication problems, as a common house system does.

Of course, if anyone wants to use other house systems for their own studies, nobody can stop them. I'm sure it would be good for everyone who has not yet done so to experiment so each student of the art can be convinced in his own mind what is best.
Just my two cents.

Warmly,

Pam

It was also here on this website that it was decided to use Regio in discussions to simplify things by having everyone use the same house cusps. It?s also at this website where you pretty much never see discussion of using other house systems for horary. Ever notice that?

No, I didn?t. Apart from the fact that all of the horary forums that I know of have pretty much the same policy ? usually stricter than anything you?ll find here ? there have been a number of occasions over the years when this issue has been raised, and it has never been put about by any of the moderators that Regiomontanus is the only system that works for horary. Here is one of several similar responses I have made to this question personally, which you can check for yourself on the link below:

Sungem wrote:

I'm aware that most of you use Regio, which is why I thought I'd better specify that I had used what I'm familiar with - that's the only reason I use Placidus.
Perhaps you could tell me what difference it will make if I start using Regio, apart from moving the cusps and that what , Lilly used it ? I'm happy to switch - I just don't know what changes to allow for.

My response:

I don?t know that it?s better to draw up horary charts in Regiomontanus and I don?t have strong opinions about that. It?s the house system that Lilly used so it seems to have become the preferred choice amongst advocates of his methods. Some people argue that it has a particular sensitivity for horary charts, but I?m not sure why that should be so. If a student has no other preferred system I tend to recommend it on the basis that most horary astrologers use it, so it has no obvious drawbacks and the conformity of opinion allows us to study and learn from each others? charts without confusion creeping in.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5166

The only requirement that is made on this site is that if another house system is used instead, the poster should specify this, so that everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet when they contribute points for discussion. If you want to use the whole-sign approach feel free, but remember to point that out if you put forward chart data for comment.

And then there are those who simply convince themselves that Regio works best for them so that they can go with the flow and join the online discussion group, or somehow tap into the abilities of Lilly or a teacher.

Hi Kirk,

Gee you make that sound like a bad thing.

I don't know about you, but I have just one year's experience as a student and practitioner of horary astrology. Although I've been an astrologer for decades, horary astrology is new to me. So it strikes me as only sensible to begin my apprenticeship in this art by using the tools recommended by those who have more experience. Refusing to do so would be like an apprentice carpenter being told to use a certain kind of screwdriver and, instead of doing so, insisting instead on trying out every tool in the toolbox. It wastes a lot of time. Once said apprentice has mastered his trade, then he can experiment, but in the beginning, while we're learning our way it seems, to me anyway, to be most expedient to work with the recommended tools.

In natal work, I have experimented with Placidus, Koch, and Porphory at different times in my career, and they all seem to work, just giving different lenses to look at the chart. Oddly, even planets transiting into houses seem to manifest as you would expect at each of the various times that they occur in the different house systems. Go figure.

On a lighter note, I once "solved" an unpleasant looking interception in my solar return by switching house systems. Expediency gone mad admittedly but, hey, whatever gets me through the night.

Tara

Tara,

You hit the nail on the head for me. I use Regiomontanus as this was the house system I was instructed in - I'm very much an apprentice and I require far mor experience before I venture into the 'unknown'. I do my best to follow the old masters - maybe elders would be a nice term to use. I'm just not comfortable using other house systems as this stage and possibly never will be.

Everyone is free to experiement with differing house systems - in fact Bernadette Brady suggests Campanus for lost items as this house system is space based. Maybe Deb would comment on this?

Using Placidus for Natals I have an Interception but if I use Alcabitius the Interception isnt there and I feel a measure of personal freedom without the interceptions.

Julie K

The decision to use Regiomontanus in discussions here was made over 3 years ago. I remember that Deb was part of that group decision, but the idea behind it was simply for ease of discussion. There?s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Deb hasn?t ever ?forced? Regio on forum members, and it was never an official Skyscript written policy.

Here?s Deb quoting herself:

It?s the house system that Lilly used so it seems to have become the preferred choice amongst advocates of his methods. Some people argue that it has a particular sensitivity for horary charts, but I?m not sure why that should be so.

Frankly, Lilly didn?t have many other house system options. He used what was available to him. It?s just a house division system ? not some magical formula he discovered. A very large number of those who contribute to these forum discussions are dabblers or still relatively new students. I honestly feel that many of those (Not all!) who say that Regio works best for them in horary are taking the easy way and are 'following the leader', haven?t extensively tested other systems, or just don?t have the experience and horary abilities to effectively judge. It does take time. Contained within the uncertainty of Deb?s ?I?m not sure why that should be so? is the necessity and obligation of further investigation by those who claim Regiomontanus to be superior. With all her experience and expertise, Deb?s uncertainty over the alleged superiority of the Regio system is worth noting.

BUT ? This is all probably a waste of time and is only my aversion to people doing things ?just because?. Since I now see that I have started something that is quite unimportant and already rather boring, I will drop the issue.