Thank YOU! for looking at the chart. My husband's doctor's appt. is on the 10th so we won't know what it showed until then.

Like you, I felt the chart definitely showed the problem as being the artery to kidney and obstructed blood flow. I just wasn't sure if it was blockage/hardening since Saturn was involved, or stenosis which you mentioned which I don't think I mentioned in my original post so that was a good pick up on that possibility on your part. That was actually the middle possibility the doctor had mentioned. (The doctor by the way is an osteopath and very good we feel.) There was no moon to Mars aspect so I was hopeful there would not be surgery needed but the Sun Sq Mars did worry me. He SO doesn't want surgery and I don't blame him. He tends to be fearful, prone to thinking more doom and gloom, so he's not taking this as well as some might. (He has Sun in Capricorn in his 12th in his natal.)

The event chart for his ultra sound however does show it might be indicated and is more worrisome:
Oct. 2, 2007 at 9:15 AM, Winchester, VA, USA. 3 degrees 12 min. Scorpio again rising.

Moon is VOC in its sign at 27 degrees 51 minutes in (Gemini) and the Moon right ahead at 1 degree 35 min. (Cancer) both still in 8th house of surgery, near conjoining the 9th cusp of medical report.

At his ultra sound, the lady who did the test couldn't discuss much with him (they aren't allowed to) but she did say that the reading near his upper arm area and his lower leg areas were giving big differences. I forget now what the readings were. His blood pressure at times is too high, even with the meds and other times is very low (healthy).

I found this site below from a search of the other link you gave:

http://www.vascularweb.org/_CONTRIBUTIO ... tions.html

I will keep you informed as to all results so you can have this for your records. These kind of medical charts are time consuming and so I really appreciate at you looking at it. You confirmed most of what I had seen and answered/confirmed some of what I hadn't wanted to see. With the three options he was given when the test was ordered, it is hard to know what to hope for next week.

I'm a little concerned that if the doctor DOES want him to get the angioplasty, that Mercury is going Retro on 12th. I'm not sure he should have the procedure during that period.

Warmly,

RC

I just wasn't sure if it was blockage/hardening since Saturn was involved, or stenosis which you mentioned which I don't think I mentioned in my original post so that was a good pick up on that possibility on your part.

Hi, RC

I'm glad you didn't feel too burdened with the information I posted. I was half afraid the doctor had not mentioned this possibility, since it appeared nowhere in your posts. But once I looked at the chart, the absence of mention of the kidneys made me feel obligated to say something, since it was so clear on the chart and you did, after all, ask for opinions on the chart. If your doctor had not been looking for this, someone needed to give a "heads up"! Smile.

Saturn can represent any kind of hardening, or obstruction. Frequently Saturn represents something _structurally_ wrong. Whatever the constriction consists of, the effect is the same. The function of the kidneys is impaired, and the rest of the body is affected in turn. We could use traditional decumbiture techniques to find the "cause" of the disease, but since this chart is not a decumbiture, I don't know how far to push the chart. . .and the cause of the disease is rather far from what your husband asked in his question, so I will leave it alone.

No question of "picking it up" or "feeling" it: the chart absolutely screams kidneys!! I'm glad your husband's doctor is already thinking along these lines.

I have been focussing lately on rectification and decumbiture, but I don't have much to offer in the way of election, yet.

As a patient one thing I have noticed is that you may pick the day for such a procedure with a fair degree of reliability, but when it comes to choosing the time. . . the ball is all in their (medical folks') court.

Please, if only for the sake of your courage if not for the sake of traditional technique, I beg you to avoid the use of the 8th house for surgery. . . this traditionally unprecedented use of the eighth house makes it impossible to try to determine if the results of the surgery will be life or death.

In your husband's question, I'm sure, based on the chart, that he will be just fine.

Best to you and your husband!

Warmly,

Pam

spirlhelix wrote: Hi, RC

... the absence of mention of the kidneys made me feel obligated to say something, since it was so clear on the chart and you did, after all, ask for opinions on the chart.

Hi Pam,

I guess you didn't read it, but my entire analysis and conclusion after reading the chart was about the problem being the kidneys and the obstruction of blood flow to them as being the cause of the high blood pressure.

I understand that as I don't usually read other peoples' readings of charts before I post my own so that I'm not influenced by what someone else's reading might be. But after I finish, I then go back and see where there might be similiar conclusions with my own conclusions.

But what I am wondering about after reading your analysis is how you came to the conclusion that it is stenosis rather than obstruction from hardening due to plaque or aneurism.

My understanding is that stenosis is a dent or kink in the artery as opposed to a blockage from plaque or worse case, an aneurism which is weakening of the artery wall to such an extent that it could open at any time. The last being the worst case. Trying to differenitiate between these three is the hard part. Seeing the interruption of healthy blood flow to the kidneys was the easy part for me.

We'll know soon enough I suppose and that will be a learning process.

Warmly,

RC

spirlhelix wrote:
Please, if only for the sake of your courage if not for the sake of traditional technique, I beg you to avoid the use of the 8th house for surgery. . . this traditionally unprecedented use of the eighth house makes it impossible to try to determine if the results of the surgery will be life or death.
....

Warmly,

Pam

Sorry Pam. I was taught by Ivy Jacobson and tho I am studying the traditional techniques and want to learn as much from them as I can, I agree with her on the 8th house ruling surgery as I've seen it work repeatedly.

She explains how she came up with that if you would like me to post it. Also what I think might be missed in the traditional approach in that regard is that back in Lilly's day and before him, elective surgery was pretty much rare if it existed at all. Surgery, such as amputation and the like was done but nothing like we have in modern times. For that reason, I think some of the traditional rulerships have to be looked at again to keep pace with modern times and modern medicine.

Just my opinion and I know there may be many here who disagree with it.

RC

Hi, RC

Sorry I misunderstood your post so wildly, it seems. Although I read your post prior to reading the chart, I did not remember you mentioning kidneys. Now I see it; thanks for bringing that to my attention! Now we're on the same page.

In response to your question, the term stenosis describes a "narrowing", usually caused by an obstruction. Perhaps we have a mismatch of terminology here. I don't think I commented on the cause of the stenosis in my post. There are several potential causes, below. Saturn in the place of the kidneys is adequate to describe "stenosis", in my opinion.

Here is a medical description of the causes of stenosis:

http://www.saha.org.ar/Avanzadas/HTAestenosis3.htm

"Most renal artery stenosis is due to atherosclerosis, and the epidemiology of this type of stenosis is similar to that of coronary artery disease. Patients are older, and more men than women develop atherosclerotic renal artery disease. Ultimately, both genders are significantly affected. In contrast, renal artery stenosis due to fibromuscular dysplasia is more common in younger women and children. Atherosclerotic renal artery stenosis is a progressive disorder that leads to hypertension, congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, renal dysfunction, and end-stage renal disease. . ."

Stenosis can cause (be primary to) an aneurism. An aneurism would not cause stenosis. An aneurism would form in this way: the blockage in the artery would cause exceptionally high blood pressure. Over time, artery walls would balloon out where they are weakest or thinnest. Think of a tire blown up past its capacity. The weakest point of the tire may cause "ballooning", which, when it happens in the arteries, is an aneurism.

If there is an aneurism when looking at your husband's chart, it would be secondary to (caused by) the stenosis, which is quite clearly shown on the chart. I did not see an aneurism in your husband's chart, but I'm really not sure I would know one if I saw it. Jupiter (arteries) combust the Sun ("blown out)? Never found one on a chart before.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I realize if you are following Ivy Jacobson, you will look to the eighth house for surgery. Saunders has thirty pages on indications of death in the chart. It's the first thing we look for in a traditional decumbiture. We traditional decumbiturists would be completely lost without the designation of the eighth as the house of death. Perhaps moderns don't think about or predict death so much, so perhaps have no need to dedicate the eighth house to it.

Warmest regards,

Pam

spirlhelix wrote:Hi, RC

....

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I realize if you are following Ivy Jacobson, you will look to the eighth house for surgery. Saunders has thirty pages on indications of death in the chart. It's the first thing we look for in a traditional decumbiture. We traditional decumbiturists would be completely lost without the designation of the eighth as the house of death. Perhaps moderns don't think about or predict death so much, so perhaps have no need to dedicate the eighth house to it.

Warmest regards,

Pam

Hi:

Oh my we are getting crossed up here.

I didn't mean to suggest 8th house is only for surgery. She didn't change that. She/I still look to it for death. Just like other houses have multiple meanings. That's where it gets trickier, differentiating between the two. In my husband's chart, he asked specifically about surgery and that is where his significator landed, 8th house. He was also ruled by Mars of surgery in the question. All this is so very well described in the chart.

Thanks for posting the info on these conditions. We have been looking at the possible treatments for stenosis and the hardening. He's been trying several things for that. Pauline therapy? (I know I probably have that spelled wrong like so other mispellings here.) There is a treatment for stenosis using a local anesthetic , angioplastic procedure. It sounds very non-invasive and I have tried to point to that to make him feel better about it. He wants no part of general anesthia.

All of this is shown in his natal chart as what he is apt to have problems with in later years.

Warmly,

RC

There is a treatment for stenosis using a local anesthetic , angioplastic procedure

.

Yes, that is the one I saw on your husband's chart. It uses the same medical technology as cardiac catheterization. In addition to a camera to view the inside of the arteries, there is a ballon which can be inflated to clear the stenosis, and/or a stent to keep the renal artery open.

The Mark of the Ascendant on your husband's chart is:

--18 Scorpio: More than halfway down Scorpio. On the body, Scorpio is found in the area that would be covered by a small bikini. The thighs belong to Sagittarius; Scorpio is the area that falls between the thighs.

--Mars is in a masculine sign (Gemini), so we predict the scar will appear on the right side of the body.

--Mars is found above the horizon, so the mark will be seen on the front of the body. . .but!

Not yet. . .because

The ascendant of this chart describes the area where the femoral artery is close to the skin and easy to access for the catheterization. This is where the catheter enters the body for an angioplastic procedure.

Since there is an applying square between Sun of treament and Mars of your husband's person, the mark is likely to be a scar which will appear, of course, after the treatment (most likely angioplasty as you described above). I would be surprised if your husband has a mark there now, because Mars is applying, (future) not separating (past).

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the point of the eighth house. I don't think I would be able to read a chart with much confidence if surgery and death shared the same house. It seems so ambiguous. And that's why I follow traditional techniques rather than modern, I spose. I don't know how to blend them, because traditional astrology of decumbiture is very precise and specific.

Warmly,

Pam

spirlhelix wrote:

There is a treatment for stenosis using a local anesthetic , angioplastic procedure

.

Yes, that is the one I saw on your husband's chart. It uses the same medical technology as cardiac catheterization. In addition to a camera to view the inside of the arteries, there is a ballon which can be inflated to clear the stenosis, and/or a stent to keep the renal artery open.

The Mark of the Ascendant on your husband's chart is:

--18 Scorpio: More than halfway down Scorpio. On the body, Scorpio is found in the area that would be covered by a small bikini. The thighs belong to Sagittarius; Scorpio is the area that falls between the thighs.

--Mars is in a masculine sign (Gemini), so we predict the scar will appear on the right side of the body.

--Mars is found above the horizon, so the mark will be seen on the front of the body. . .but!

Not yet. . .because

The ascendant of this chart describes the area where the femoral artery is close to the skin and easy to access for the catheterization. This is where the catheter enters the body for an angioplastic procedure.

Since there is an applying square between Sun of treament and Mars of your husband's person, the mark is likely to be a scar which will appear, of course, after the treatment (most likely angioplasty as you described above). I would be surprised if your husband has a mark there now, because Mars is applying, (future) not separating (past).

No, he doesn't have any scars on his torso now that I can think of.
This is all very comforting (thank you ) and makes perfect sense with the chart.

RC

spirlhelix wrote:
I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the point of the eighth house. I don't think I would be able to read a chart with much confidence if surgery and death shared the same house. It seems so ambiguous. And that's why I follow traditional techniques rather than modern, I spose. I don't know how to blend them, because traditional astrology of decumbiture is very precise and specific.

Warmly,

Pam

That's okay. I cannot believe how traditional astrology is so all the rage now. Must be some planet that brought that about. Perhaps if I had not first learned Horary back in (80 or 81??) with Ivy's methods I would be more open to shutting the door on it. But when we each see our own techniques work for us, we tend to hold to them. But I think there's room to allow for both which is why I want to learn the 'traditional' way as well. I think there's room for improvement .

And I think Lilly would allow for some changes. I think if he were alive today, he wouldn't be using oil lamps to light his house. I imagine he'd use electricity like everyone else and so I think he'd look at Uranus just as modern astrologists do.
(This last statement is for Tom. )

RC

Hi Pam:

Just wanted to post my husband's test results.

The good news from his standpoint is that he does not have to have surgery and there is no aneurysm. These were the things he was so worried about.

The ultra sound produced a good visual for the reading as shown in the horary. Also as shown in the horary, he has an obstruction in his left renal artery of about 60% and moderate build up in left femoral artery.

The doctor has written him a prescription for a cholesterol reducing drug (a statin drug). Even though his cholesterol levels are good, apparently this particular drug may help reduce & even possibly reverse atherosclerosis if certain life style changes some of which he had already began are continued faithfully. The doctor recommended he do as much exercise, bike riding & walking that he can do. He is also going to try harder to stop smoking.

As interpretated in the horary (under Ivy's methods), Mercury, ruler of surgery (8th house) was in his 11th, and not in orb of aspect to his ruler Mars which was in the 8th house of surgery which is what he had asked about and what he was most worried about.

Also, there was no Moon to Mars aspect which would have indicated that some surgery would be had in immediate future.

So, he did not get a perfect report, but one that we suspected and he is greatly relieved and optimistic and determined to now reverse the atherosclerosis as much as humanly possible.

RC

Hi, RC

I'm so happy that your husband has found out what has been wrong, and that major surgery will not be a part of his treatment plan.

Best to both of you! Wishing your husband the best on his road to better health.

Well wishes,

Pam

spirlhelix wrote:
The ascendant of this chart describes the area where the femoral artery is close to the skin and easy to access for the catheterization. This is where the catheter enters the body for an angioplastic procedure.
....

Pam

Thanks Pam:

That is interesting that Ascendant showed that area since the test also showed this other problem area that was better illuminated though mainly he was concerned about the artery running to the kidney when he asked the question. Although the chart was mostly about the kidneys, he also has p.a.d. in left leg which we had discovered during a simple lifescreening test we both did about a year ago that checks the carotid artery in neck and legs for signs of blockage.

Sometimes his leg hurts when he walks, sometimes it doesn't. So the treatment now is aimed at this area as well.

RC