Laura BT wrote:Granny_skot, Your chap has ticked all the boxes for body art: Venus as chart ruler, and lord of the 8th. Sun/Mercury on the Decendant in Mars ruled Aries. Venus is in Taurus, in a tight and tough to carry Fixed Cross; Venus is in opposition to Neptune in Scorpio, and squares Saturn in Aquarius, and the Moon in Leo. Adding to the pain, a Jupiter /Chiron conjunction opposes Pluto in Virgo, which brings us full circle as Pluto trines the seventh house Venus, which is at home by sign and house; this is someone who has serious issues with authoirty, but thinks he looks great! Scorpio is also on the cusp of the 2nd. At least this helps you to undestand him a little better. Is he also an artist?

Hi Laura:

Have you confused Granny's birth data with the forked tongue "brat"? I thought this was Granny's birth data.

RC

So it is granny_skots! Thanks RC, I'm glad someone is double checking this mercury retrograde action!

And wow! What a chart it is -- Maybe it's because Granny's own astrological pattern is so potentially creative and dynamic, that it explains her interest with this subject, and why she is repulsed by (and, dare I say, drawn to) tattoos and forked tongues?

I wonder how one inveigles 'brats' birth data from him?!

Mercury rules the tongue; and if his is 'forked' (yuk), then one might be right to assume he has Gemini/Mercury/3rd house challenging his Mars/Saturn/Pluto?

Forked tongues are associated with the devil, lies, and reptiles - not a pleasant mix! This would read astrologically: Saturn, Mercury, Pluto. Saturn, ruler of skin, is also the Lord of Karma; maybe Brat has some past-life association he is inexplicably attached to?

It's worth noting all this while Mercury is going retrograde from Scorpio, back to Libra. Could it be too much to hope that 'Brat' will re-think, change his mind and let it grow normally?!

he may at some point let it go back as it is a pain to keep it forked, but his business is body piercing and alteration so I suspect he'll always have something weird going on, and I too suspect he's a gemini, but haven't been able to verify.

and yes I find it amusing that I like a guy and then find out he has tattoos, possibly also amusing that the men in question have hidden them from public view,

and more interesting, I have two male friends who's birthdays are both 1971, one is 27 January, one 13 February (libra rising), both had Dragons Tattoed accross the left chest, hmmm I'd forgotten that until you reminded me. something to consider perhaps. but makes me think even more generational

and yes the birth data is mine.
Granny

All,

A very interesting discussion and quite informative.

Two male persons known to me have tatoos. One is 77 years of age now and both arms are heavily covered in 'tats' as he calls them. I had known this male for years without knowing about the 'tats'- he made note of the fact he had always worn long sleeved shirts when being interviewed for jobs.

The other of - early 40's - has a ring of dolpins on one upper arm - he's into saving the whales and dolphins.

Both males are Mercury ruled - one a Gemini Sun and the other a Virgo Sun.

Julie K

Moles, or birth-marks, and their signification to man and woman by Maud Wheeler (London: Roxburghe Press, 1894)

http://www.openlibrary.org/details/mole ... 00wheeiala

I came across the online reproduction of this text yesterday whilst looking for something else. I haven?t read it myself so I don?t know how good it is, but it seems to be mainly concerned with the analysis of marks and moles based on astrological rulerships. If anyone has any prominent moles (I don?t), they can test this book out by looking at what it is supposed to mean. Also, Granny sent me a list of her marks and moles, in case anyone wants to see if they can identify where these are. I use Lilly?s technique in horary, (as described by Keren), but I?ve never applied them to natal charts.

BTW, Lilly didn?t see this as superficial. He says in his introduction that it was the good results he obtained in identifying peoples? marks and moles that made him take the study of astrology seriously.

Interestingly it was rising signs that made me get more serious about Astrology, a lot of Aries stuff didn't make seense to me until I learned about rising signs and read more aboutLibra, was a bit of an eye opening,

but back to scars and such... anyone going ot make a stabe at mine?

no problem if you miss, just interesting to see if you get some hits.

Granny

Thank you Deb, for Maud Wheeler's book on Moles is interesting. Her body parts rulers are not the usual ones, i.e. backbone to Jupiter and kidneys to Mars - I've not come across those before.

If I correctly understand the system Karen kindly explained, her mother's scar is on her right side of middle back for the moon in Leo (or is it the right knee with that Capricorn Sun?).

Hummm, not sure if I am getting it; but here goes with a couple of Granny's scars:

With Libra rising, Queen Venus ruling Taurus in the 7th, Granny should have a visible scar-mole on the mid-way left side of the throat? Or is it the left kidney?

And with Moon in Leo, disposted by a 23 degree Aries Sun, which is exalted (even in the 7th) , Granny has a visible scar-mole on the middle-to-high right side of her forehead...?

Following the 6th house rule, which has Pisces on the cusp giving Jupiter as ruler, Granny's left foot, underneath and near the toes, shows a scar/mole? Cutting Mars is also Pisces in the 6th, so this mark is probably a scar.

Am I anywhere near?

Hi Laura

With Libra rising, Queen Venus ruling Taurus in the 7th, Granny should have a visible scar-mole on the mid-way left side of the throat? Or is it the left kidney?

I don?t think she has one on her throat, but 21 Libra rising would point to an area around some prominent scars, I think. (I?m not sure if the left kidney is close enough ? Granny will have to check that.)

And with Moon in Leo, disposted by a 23 degree Aries Sun, which is exalted (even in the 7th) , Granny has a visible scar-mole on the middle-to-high right side of her forehead...?

I don?t think so. In Lilly?s technique you would concentrate more on the sign placement of the Moon, so the main bodily association would come from Leo. The fact that the Moon is elevated in the chart would describe it as on the front of the body or more easily visible. This is the theory of it, although as Lilly says (below) it is much more reliable when we find these places afflicted by malefics.

Following the 6th house rule, which has Pisces on the cusp giving Jupiter as ruler, Granny's left foot, underneath and near the toes, shows a scar/mole? Cutting Mars is also Pisces in the 6th, so this mark is probably a scar.

Yes. Her feet seem to have been hit pretty badly over the years ? Mars in Pisces on the 6th cusp picks that up nicely. Of one she says:

?I was about 3 when i stepped on an old-fashioned oil can, one with spout and it went through my left foot, leaving a scar top and bottom on my foot that some people have thought was a crucifixion type scar?

Here?s a few more notes from Lilly?s text, in case you don?t have these.

CA., p.149:

If Saturn signifies the mark, it?s a darkest, obscure, black one; if Mars, then it?s usually some scar or cut if he be in a fire sign, or else in any other sign, a red mole. And you must always know, that if either the sign, or the planet signifying the mole, mark or scar, be much afflicted, the mark or scar is the greater and more eminent.
If the sign be masculine, and the planet masculine, the mole or scar is on the right side of the body. The contrary judge, if the sign be feminine, and the lord thereof in a feminine sign.
If the significator of the scar or mole be above the earth, (that is, from the cusp of the ascendant to the cusp of the seventh, as either in the twelfth, eleventh, tenth, ninth, eighth or seventh) the mark is on the fore part of the body, or visible to the eye, or on the out-side of the member. But if the significator be under the earth, viz., in the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or sixth, the mole or scar is on the back part of the body, not visible, but on the inside of the member.
If few degrees of a sign do ascend, or if the lord of the sign be in a few degrees, the mole, mark or scar is in the upper part of the member. If the middle of the sign ascend, or the lord thereof [be] in the middle, or near the middle of the sign, the mole or mark is so in the member, viz. in the middle. If the latter degrees ascend, or the Moon, or lord of the first or sixth house be near the last degrees of the sign, the mole, mark or scar is near the lower part of the member.

Kidneys are in back are they Not? I have no scars on my back that I know of, good spotting on the foot!

Though if one was looking for height of Scar, Kidney level does hit one, maybe two depending on how you look at it,



Granny

Thanks Granny and Deb - One out of three - whoops!
But better than none!

With my Aries Moon making a grand trine between a Leo Mars and my Ascendant, you know I am covered in freckles and moles; with only one serious scar that also conforms to the rules, I am quite convinced there are astrological reasons for all such marks. Here goes with my second try on Granny?s marks/scars:

The Ascendant ruler, Venus in Taurus, in the 7th has me somewhat flummoxed, as there results could be various: By rights there should be some mark around the navel. Granny, you say your mark could be considered the same height as the kidney area ? this provides an interesting clue: But I still have several different ideas of where Granny?s scars might be, and why.

Could there be a Moon ruled stomach scar? Or with the Moon in masculine Leo, at the top of her chart: Granny might have a mark middle-right of her heart area? Or because of the Venus semi-square towards the 6th house Jupiter ruled Mars, it could even be her liver?

The 10th house Moon is also conjunct Uranus (if only Lilly had something to say about outer planets!) suggesting the mark is eminent. Is this not actually a mole but a scar (from a sudden need for surgery)?

But because the Taurean Venus is locked into a phenomenal fixed grand cross, the mark on the front of the body, opposite Saturn in the 4th - the matrix connected to children, suggests that maybe we are looking at a cesarean scar? Possible?



Granny's horrid childhood accident with her foot onto an oilcan is poignant, considering Neptune, ruler of Pisces, is also the planet associated with oil (and feet). Does Horary then use Jupiter as the ruler of oil?

LOL you hit one I didn't think to include, but yes I've had two C sections though the scar is no longer visible. I have a scar at the sternum and Navel due to an emergency surgery that included removing a tumor from my Liver, Liver is internal so i didn't think to include that in my list but hit several of my scars. the only one that really shows much is the one at the sternum, my own fault I strained the stitches getting out of bed almost directly after surgery, I hate hospitals.

And yes there are more scars on the list.

you hit those very precisely, nice.

Granny

Granny, said

And yes there are more scars on the list.

We could attribute multiple scaring to the Piscean Jupiter, planet that thinks of a number only to double it, as ruler of the 6th, conjunct Chiron (and also conjunct Mars, by sign, who sits in the 6th) opposite Pluto in health orientated Virgo in the 11th house.

But we have yet to attributed any mark to Granny's Aries Sun conjunct Mercury on the Descendent. Granny, how are your eyes/arms/lungs ?

At the risk of lowering the tone, but to continue our study: a synchronistic article popped into my mailbox this week, which read:

Poor Anna Nichole Smith. Notorious pin-up model, most famous for marrying oil-exec octogenarian billionaire, died aged 39. Here is a definitive list of her tattoos (which illustrate Lilly?s rules as per C.A. p149):

* Pair of red lips in the right lower abdominal quadrant.
* Two red cherries on the right mid-pelvis.
* A "Playboy Bunny" on the left anterior mid-pelvis.
* The words "Daniel" and "Papas" on the mid- anterior pelvis.
* Mixed tattoo on the right lower leg and ankle representing Christ's head; Our Lady of Guadalupe; the Holy Bible; the naked torso of a woman; the smiling face of Marilyn Monroe; a cross; a heart and shooting flames.
* A mermaid on a flowerbed with a pair of lips underneath it laying across the lower back.

Her chart is from www.astrotheme.fr (this site has an 'English' button top right) Unfortunately, time is unknown:

born: 28 November 1967 Houston Texas

A Libra Moon Venus conjunction shows right-hand lower navel adornment, cherries and lips!

Names ?Daniel and Papas? are also the Moon (she is Mother) and Venus in Libra (navel to pelvis).

The left hand frontal Playboy Bunny could also be attributed to be the Sun in Sagittarius ruled by Jupiter in (negative, therefore left side) Virgo: I have no idea what Lilly has to say about bunny?s, but in Chinese astrology the sign of the Rabbit is attributed to Pisces, which in traditional astrology is ruled by Jupiter.

The lower right leg is attributed to Saturn in positive Aries, which makes various aspects: conjunct Chiron in Pisces, is also in trine to her fire sign Sagittarius Sun, ruled Jupiter (all symbols for religious leaning: Jesus, Mary, the Bible and cross with MM, heart and shooting flames).

The lower back mermaid flowerbed on lips is interesting, with Saturn in Aries, trine the Sun, with themes of Moon Libra with Veuns, Pisces and Jupiter, and Neptune conjunct Mercury in Scorpio all very fantasy orientated.

Generally speaking, on this subject, I have learnt how Lilly?s rules apply for placements, but not necessarily as to why a person tattoos their body; this I still attribute to Mars for cutting, Venus for adornment, and Saturn for skin ? with a hefty association to Pluto, by house or aspect.

One last note: Anna Nicole Smith falls into this category, with her Mars in Capricorn in mutual reception with Saturn in Aries, and Moon conjunct Venus.

Perhaps it is possible to work backwards with tattoos, marks and scars, and even rectify a chart according to Lilly?s rules of visible/invisible marks be they front, back, higher or lower?!