Can we legitimate changing the dispositions (rulerships) of the triplicities by day and night?

This is another thing: do they change? By "change" I mean does the day ruler no longer have influence once the night time arrives? Or put another way, Saturn is the day ruler of Air. Mercury is the night ruler. So after sunset, Mercury becomes the ruler and Saturn becomes ... what? He is no longer influential? If that were the case what can we say about the participating ruler in the Dorotheus system? That ruler is said to have influence day and night, but not so much as the day and night ruler. Yet no one pays attention to the participating ruler at all, or the night ruler in a day chart or the day ruler in a night chart.

It seems to me that the system makes more sense if one ruler is dominant and the others less so, but to say in a day chart that Saturn rules air (correct) and Mercury has no influence until sunset, but Jupiter has a little influence all the time is a bit silly. If it is silly, can Mercury be peregrine in air in a day chart? Can Jupiter?


Tom

This is good, Tom. These are some of the questions tumbling round in my mind. Moon in Virgo is peregrine by day and may be the indicator of a thief, but not by night. Mercury rules Air by night - but in a nocturnal chart he will be below the horizon most of the time. If you follow me... but I think we may unravel it.

I felt the question of triplicity rulerships could be included because it relates to determining the differences between diurnal and nocturnal charts.

Much appreciate your reference to the classical.

Tom says:
Saturn is the day ruler of Air. Mercury is the night ruler. So after sunset, Mercury becomes the ruler and Saturn becomes ... what? He is no longer influential?

In my opinion it is very much a matter of lights on, lights off.

Tom says:
...but to say in a day chart that Saturn rules air (correct) and Mercury has no influence until sunset, but Jupiter has a little influence all the time is a bit silly.

Here we are talking about different principles, surely, as Jupiter is sympathetic to air because of the agreement of his nature, i.e. temperately hot, moist and airy with the qualities of air, i.e. hot & moist. Yes, I would have judged Jupiter as peregrine in air but then I would have called a chart with Gemini rising in the hour of Jupiter as radical because of the agreement of nature.

I think you raise some excellent questions here and we should scratch round to find the answers!!

Regarding the POF and the Part of Spirit
They are both on the AC at the New Moon and then they travel in the opposite directions equi-distance from the AC, one above the horizon, the other below. When the Sun and the Moon are in square, they are in opposition to each other and they meet again on the DC at the Full Moon.
As they mirror each other it may make sense to look at both. My experience is that the one above the horizon is more effective/significant in the external world at large although it may depend on the house in which it falls and their aspects to natal planets(particularly conjunction).

Flicked through my files to see if I could come up with any examples. Just take this as imput to the discussion. It is obvious that the material provided is incomplete and each example could be treated with greater detail:

L1270 - nocturnal chart
The changed Fortuna is 26AR01 conj North Node 28AR10 in the 9th.
The woman has her work and income as a school inspector.

L1275 - nocturnal chart
The Moon at 9AQ41 last passed over the changed Part of Spirit at 21SG28 in the 3rd house before passing Chiron 1AQ16 opp Uranus 2LE15r. The Mother had to travel (PoS) by horse and sleigh (SG-3rd) to get to the midwife. During birth the electricity failed and the child was born by the light of a lantern fetched from the cowhouse.

L1278 - diurnal chart, the Sun in Gemini opposes the Asc
The Part of Spirit 5AR43 on 3rd. The native has 3 half brothers/sisters.

L1281 - diurnal chart
The unchanged Part of Spirit 16SC03 conj IC at 18SC20
The father was a sailor and travelled a lot.

L1288 - nocturnal chart
The changed Fortuna 15PI48 in the degree of Mercury's fall in the 2nd. The native has income from work at the Norwegian Wine Monopoly.

I guess I wanna toss in my opinion about the matter. Personally, I think the best judge of which Lot works best is in using the Zodiacal Releasing techniques as being revealed by Project Hindsight.

Apparently, the issue of switching the Lots even predates Ptolemy. It was supposed to be a technique put forth by Nechepso and Petosiris but the text was unclear and, much like the various interpretations of Ptolemy's system of primary directions, a slew conflicting opinions arose. By Ptomley's time however most astrologers settled into the habit of switching depending on the chart sect.

Part of the reasoning behind the switching of the lots must have something to do with the role of the dominant luminary. As I understand it, the dominant luminary (Sun by day, Moon by night) acts as one of the 'rulers of the chart', not quite the lord of the geniture but it has a role in determining the direction an individual takes in his or her life. Note what Rob Hand says again:

The Ancients said that The Part of Fortune was lunar in nature and The Part of Spirit was solar in nature, but they said something vastly more useful. Their descriptions stated in modern terms indicate that the Part of Fortune has to do with things that were unconscious, unintentional, instinctual, emotional and physical. These are all words for characteristics of material causes in living things. Whereas, the Part of Spirit was intentional, conscious, planned, ordered etc. It is the opposite. The implications of the ancient doctrines on the Part of Spirit and the Part of Fortune are that the Part of Fortune is a point of material cause in the chart and the Part of Spirit is a point having to do with manifest soul or consciousness, a formal cause.

In the Part of Fortune, the direction of native's soul is hidden. Hence the emphasis on unconscious events or more practically, events outside of the control of the native. Why? Because in the diurnal POF where Asc + Moon - Sun, the Sun is placed on the ascendant and the Moon's relative position is the active element. The Moon dominates in a day chart, the Sun dominates in the night chart. It is the suppression of the native's conscious will or perhaps its indirect manifestation which is represented by the non-dominant luminary of the chart.

In the Part of Spirit we have the reverse taking place. Now Asc + Sun - Moon in a day chart means that the Moon acts as an ascendant and the Sun is active element. The Sun acting in his own sect implies the point from which the native make decision of his own conscious effort and will. Unsuppressed and free to shine, the dominant luminary is free to act on its own accord.

This is now comes to the method of Zodiacal Releasing / Zodiacal Aphesis. The following two sites explain the details well:

http://www.projecthindsight.com/article ... 0Kerry.pdf
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-file ... hesis.html

Hindsight also offers a ridiculously expensive 10-hour lecture intensive on the usage of zodiacal releasing techniques on the prediction of the native's career. It is particularly important to note that the selection of which lot to use is based on the native's free will to choose his or her occupation. I'm no expert but in the charts that I've used the releasing techniques on, they make no sense without the flipped Part of Fortune and Spirit.

As an aside, the notion that the POF is the Part of the Moon and the POS is the Part of the Sun seems to be a later nickname that came about when Ptomely's influence stopped the switching of the parts. I don't believe the parts ever had those nicknames when it was common place to switch them.

Anyway, much of this hinges on the understanding that the dominant luminary has a specific role not given by the other luminary. If anyone has any further information on that, perhaps that may be the key to putting this age long dispute to rest.

Scorpion Eggs

This is another thing: do they change? By "change" I mean does the day ruler no longer have influence once the night time arrives? Or put another way, Saturn is the day ruler of Air. Mercury is the night ruler. So after sunset, Mercury becomes the ruler and Saturn becomes ... what? He is no longer influential? If that were the case what can we say about the participating ruler in the Dorotheus system? That ruler is said to have influence day and night, but not so much as the day and night ruler. Yet no one pays attention to the participating ruler at all, or the night ruler in a day chart or the day ruler in a night chart.

It seems to me that the system makes more sense if one ruler is dominant and the others less so, but to say in a day chart that Saturn rules air (correct) and Mercury has no influence until sunset, but Jupiter has a little influence all the time is a bit silly. If it is silly, can Mercury be peregrine in air in a day chart? Can Jupiter?

The site http://www.astrology-x-files.com/ used to have a lovely free 3 hour taped lecture by Rob Schmidt. Apparently, it not available right now. Hopefully, they'll be available again soon. In the lecture, Schmidt explains the role of sect with the triplicities quite clearly. In a day chart, the day ruler ruled the first half of life and the night ruler the second half and vice versa in a night chart. What about the participating lord? His function was basically to aspect a planet with his triplicities lords should they fall inconjunct (by whole sign). The whole issue of the triplicity lords ruling thirds of the life is apparently a historical error of transmition. My own chart is a nice example. Born at night, I have Moon in Libra so that make Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter the lords of the dominant luminary.

Mercury is in Sagittarius
Saturn is in Scorpio
Jupiter is in Aquarius

Now, according to tradition, Merucry is the lord of the first half of the life and he is in sextile with Moon in Libra. Saturn, the, rules the second half of life but Scorpio is inconjunct Libra, that's where Jupiter steps in. Being in Aquarius he binds both the Moon and Saturn because from Aquarius he can aspect both of them. The Greeks refered to the third triplicity lord as the co-operating lord. In a natal chart, all triplicity lords are strengthened being in their own triplicities regard of the chart sect, so Jupiter is also strengthened in that manner as well. Had Saturn been in Gemini, he'd be strengthened too regardless of the fact that I have a night chart. The sect in this particular case only influences the order of the lords ruling the triplicities, but not their strength.

Scorpion Eggs

I think the truth of the matter is that the lots grow and wane in strength relative to sect and phase.

According to sect and phase, then, the lots wax and diminish and they reflect this by where in the chart they are found.

I've never seen the lots described as "having strength" or waxing and waning. I think this adds a physical dimension to the lots that is usually reserved for planets. Since they don't rule anything I don't see how they can have strength. That being said they are considered more influential in some signs (fortuna in fruitful signs for example) than in others, but that would hold regardless of sect.

I see quite clearly that the Greeks and others reversed according to sect. That they did it is not the question. Why do it? is the question and giving the lots strength does not seem to satisfy.

In a nocturnal chart, when the Moon is waxing, Fortune (the lunar lot) is always above the horizon and moves with the diurnal motion and its strength reflects the strength of both luminaries.

This is true if we reverse. It is possible to have fortuna below the horizon in a nocturnal chart when the Moon is waxing, if we don't, but the implication is that fortuna has sect, i.e. the lot is better placed above the horizon in a nocturnal chart with a waxing Moon, so we rig the formula to assure it happens.

I think we reached a point in the discussion where we would be better served with concrete examples of nocturnal charts comparing the lots reversed and non reversed. Since fortuna is said to represent the body there may be cases that can demonstrate in concrete form, at least in those charts, the superiority of one method over the other.

Tom

If I suggested that Fortuna was where you were 'anchored' and the Part of Spirit was where you 'soared', would that either make sense or capture someones imagination?

Time: 10.38 GMT - I just received an SMS from my daughter telling me she as become an air-hostess. A chart for this moment shows Asc 11CP36, MC 1SG26 conj ME 3SG02. Mercury is the ruler of the 5th. Now comes the point. The Part of Spirit is 20PI14 and on the cusp of the 10th in the turned chart! (Diurnal)

Hi Andrew,

what am I doing wrong? I calculated a chart for the time you gave, 3rd December 2007 at 9.38 GMT Oslo, Norway, but I got 28 Sagittarius rising.

My mistake. I did the chart and deducted the time zone first once, and then again when I posted the article. My apologies.

Tom Callanan wrote:

This is true if we reverse. It is possible to have fortuna below the horizon in a nocturnal chart when the Moon is waxing, if we don't, but the implication is that fortuna has sect, i.e. the lot is better placed above the horizon in a nocturnal chart with a waxing Moon, so we rig the formula to assure it happens.

I think you've identified the rationale behind the reversal: it's rigged to reflect sect, to force an interpretation based on a theoretical dynamic.

Andrew Bevan wrote:

If I suggested that Fortuna was where you were 'anchored' and the Part of Spirit was where you 'soared', would that either make sense or capture someones imagination?

It seems to make sense and it certainly captures my imagination, but I still wouldn't reverse the formula for Sors by night.

The horoscope of Prince Charles (without the reversal) has the part of fortune at 13 Capricorn 24 in the sixth (Placidian) house and the part of spirit at 27 Aquarius 23 in the eighth (Placidian) house.

The horoscope of Prince Charles (with the reversal) has the part of fortune at 27 Aquarius 23 in the eighth (Placidian) house and the part of spirit at 13 Capricorn 24 in the sixth (Placidian) house.

John Gadbury writes:

The Part of Fortune in the sixth House in a Nativity, is very propitious unto the Native; gives him Gain by his Servants, and by the Beasts of smaller kinde he deals in. It denotes the Prosperity and Happiness of his Unkles and Aunts, and those of Kin to his Father.

By "Menographick Aspect" (Richard Saunders), Saturn in Virgo in the second house is in trine to the (non-reversed) part of fortune in the sixth house; Venus in Libra in the fourth house is in square to it; the Sun in Scorpio in the fourth house is in sextile to it. Note also that the powerful fixed stars Ascella and Vega conjoin the (non-reversed) part of fortune in Charles' chart.

Charles' interest in alternative health care is widely known.

Most of Prince Charles' wealth is not from the former British Empire, but is mostly derived from the Duchy of Cornwall, which now includes 70,000 acres in Devon, 18,000 acres in Cornwall, 15,000 acres in Somerset and practically the whole of the Isles of Scilly. This land supports a range of businesses and agricultural and forestry enterprises valued at ?463m. Recently Prince Charles enjoyed a rise in his profits to ?13m, up 11 per cent. The revenues that generate this surplus come from farmers' rent.

The Part of Fortune in the Eighth, makes the Native Rich, by the means of dead Folks; chiefly, if assisted by the good Rays of the Fortunes: but if afflicted by Saturn or Mars, or by Stars of their Nature, there, the Native gains but poorly by dead Folks.

By "Menographick Aspect" again, Saturn in Virgo in the second house is in opposition to the (reversed) part of fortune in the eighth house; Jupiter in Sagittarius in the fifth house is in sextile to it.

Got a chart showing the nocturnal Fortuna in the Horary section: 'Unexpected Pregancy' http://www.astronor.com/prgnt1.gif or
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 3223#23223

Here the nocturnal Part of Fortune is joined to the Moon. The woman in question had got pregnant and was well and truly 'anchored'.

And another one here concerning a relationship: http://www.astronor.com/wed11.gif Here the Moon is 12LI56 and 1deg39' past the Part of Spirit (nocturnal) at 11LI17. The woman got wedded (Holy ceremony) in October 1,5 month ago.