I said - imagine. OK, they are in the same city and the interval is 5 minutes.
And I think that the most likely outcome would be -- that both charts (or the same chart for both) would turn up not radical or contradictory.

I suppose that asnwers Coffee's question.

It would be that the winner of the contest is not judged by the ascendant. Some of the work we are doing here attempts to determine whether the favourite gets the victory, or the underdog.

Good question, however - keeps us on our toes!

As far as I understand you are assigning the favourite to the ASC. If that is the case, what or who determines which team is the favourite? By the bookmakers' odds? But the favourite can become the underdog during the course of the day (happens once in a while).

As Frawley points out in his book, the bookies line is only a guide. I am sure the cosmos knows nothing of the Las Vegas pointspread! You have to use your own knowledge of the two teams to make an estimate of who is likely to go in the first. At the moment I know of no certain way to make that determination, altho there are some possibilities I have to look into. Your best bet is to avoid games where the spread is fairly even. Hard to tell then who is the favorite. I think that, in American football, if you go with teams that are favored by about a touchdown you should be reasonably safe.

I won't be able to respond to any answer until the 28th, as I am off to sunny California for the holidays!

Bob

Reading through the posts on this debate, it's interesting to observe that Andrew and Goca have put forward concrete examples, whereas Nixander and Coffee are putting forward hypothetical scenarios.

There's only one way to find out which methods work consistently and which don't, and that's by putting in the hard work on many charts on a regular basis. This is what we have been doing on the forum, and some of us have been doing it for many years.

By its nature, horary can only be used sparingly, as Andrew has pointed out. As far as event charts are concerned, there are plenty of one-off games to look at. If you experience problems with giving the Asc to the favourites, then try giving it to the home team or use Goca's colours method. Or experiment with new methods of your own, as Andrew is doing with PoF/PoS.

I created that hypothetical scenario to answer the Coffee's question. Ok, here is a real-life example that shows that the horary and the event charts are connected

Horary "Will Latvia win the game (vs Belarus)?"
18/12 11:13 GMT+2 56N57 24E06.
ASC is AQU, DSC is LEO
No question about which team is ASC

The Event chart
18/12 20:00 GMT+2 56N57 24E06
ASC is LEO, DSC is AQU

Since Latvia is a small favourite and plays at home in its own country, I suppose ASC is Latvia. Also, since Aquarius is linked to Russia and Belorus in fact is Belorussia, I assume that the DSC is Belorus.

Hope you recognize at least one of the countries

In the horary, the Belorus team (DSC) is supposed to lose according to my books. In the event chart the situation is a bit tricky. The Lord of the Ascendant (Sun) is in the 5th house in opposition to L10 (Mars), so it is not a good sign. Yet the Sun is TRI (trine) PoF in the 10th house which usually helps to overcome the negative influence of a tough aspect. So, if the ASC team wins in the event chart and the DSC team loses in the horary, it is the same thing in the end, even though the chart is reversed.

Any thoughts?

Or maybe the ASC (LEO) is Belorus and the DSC (AQU) is Latvia in the event chart just like in the horary?

Ficina wrote:Reading through the posts on this debate, it's interesting to observe that Andrew and Goca have put forward concrete examples, whereas Nixander and Coffee are putting forward hypothetical scenarios.

There's only one way to find out which methods work consistently and which don't, and that's by putting in the hard work on many charts on a regular basis. This is what we have been doing on the forum, and some of us have been doing it for many years.

Hypothetical scenarios? Maybe.
There is a point to it all. Forget about what works/doesnt and think about it in REALITY.

Event chart?
Does everyone here feel comfortable predicting the winner of a match from an event chart, which would mean that its all about the event natal?
i.e quality of teams dont matter, just the natal chart.

Maybe others dont want to think about it in this way as it might mean the research that everyone (including me) has done, is not the way to go.

Ultimately, I'm after the correct way of doing it, if at all possible. If this means discounting options that dont work, that is the best way to go.

Thanks for the examples

In the event chart there are some minor testimonies for the Desc team (Belarus), according to John Frawley's rules. Moon sextile antiscion Venus (L4) which is conj Desc, and antiscion Saturn (L7) conj MC but this will move out of orb if the game starts late. I can't see anything else.

I'm a bit out of practice with sports horaries. Saturn (L1) in 7th (enemy's house) doesn't look good for Latvia but it's in a different sign from cusp so that weakens this testimony. S Node in 7th looks bad for Belarus. Is this the testimony that you are using for Belarus losing or are there others?

Thanks for giving me your opinion.

Well, in the sports horary, at least in my experience, it is not a big deal if L1 is in the 7th house even in the first sign. This in not war. Sometimes it signifies that the game takes place on the "enemy's" turf, that's all. If that is the case in the event charts, well, I guess you know better.
And curiously if L1 is badly afflicted in the 7th house it can hurt the DSC (not ASC) team.

In this case, L7 is in the 11th (DSC's 5th house) together with Jupiter (DSC's L5). They're both in the latter degrees and in opposition to the malefic Mars. That can't be good. Well, I can see on the other hand two minor testimonies for the DSC's team but I will not discuss them at least for now.
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As to the event chart -- the horary chart is reversed, so it is kinda supposed to be the same judgement (only reversed) but there are two big differences.
First, the MOON is TRI Sun (L1) in the 5th. The orb is wide (12 d 58m) yet it is within 13,30, so it's fine. Moon TRI Sun is a "+" for the ASC.
Second, the Sun (L1 in the 5th) is still in opposition to the Mars (L10 in this chart) BUT the Sun is TRI PoF in the 10th house. PoF is known for "saving" the significators from the negative influence of a hard aspect. Well, I don't like PoF being in the 29th (latter) degree of ARI in the 10th house but I still think PoF is going to help. So PoF is another "+" for the ASC. In my opinion, a tough win for the ASC, whichever country that is.

I know, I am using the horary logic to read the event chart, but I can't help myself.

Well, in the sports horary, at least in my experience, it is not a big deal if L1 is in the 7th house even in the first sign. This in not war. Sometimes it signifies that the game takes place on the "enemy's" turf, that's all. If that is the case in the event charts, well, I guess you know better.

It's not the case in event charts. I was just trying to remember how it's supposed to work in horaries. As I said, I very rarely do horaries, so I'll bow to your experience. My experience of Saturn as L1 in 7th in event charts is that last season it favoured the Asc team purely for being in an angular house. Similarly L7 in 10th favoured Desc team for the same reason. However, these testimonies don't seem to be working so well this season, which is very irritating.

I know, I am using the horary logic to read the event chart, but I can't help myself.

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks

Latvia won 3-1 (it is U20 Ice Hockey). Just FYI.

And I'm a bit confused. Both charts seems to work. So it does not matter which team is ASC or DSC? Well, if it works..