Hi everyone,
here's a question that puzzles me a little, and I apologise if it's been answered somewhere already. How would one interpret reception by detriment or fall, as in the querent's sig' in say, Aries, being received by the quesited's sig (Saturn in this case) into it's fall?
My own feeling is that the quesited holds a deep antagonism toward the querent and may hold quite negative feelings towards him/her.

Can anyone confirm or clarify that? I really appreciate your help on this, thanks.
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Pete

Hello,

I wouldn't even call it reception!. Perhaps "Rejection" can be used (pending a better term).

First of all, following Bonatti and his Arab predecessors, I need to have aspects before the concept of reception or "rejection" can kick in. Aspect = "seeing", no aspect - no seeing, no seeing - no receiving and no rejecting.

An example:
I like to view aspects as presence of rays on certain signs relative to a planet casting the ray. If Mars is in Cancer, he casts sextile rays onto Virgo and Taurus, square rays onto Libra and Aries, trine rays onto Scorpio and Pisces and an opposition ray onto Capricorn. Note that the number of rays cast by any planet = 7 (th same as the number of planets in Traditional Astrology). Besides casting rays, planets also cast shadows. Mars in Cancer casts shadows onto Gemini and Sagitarrius (antiscions and contra-antiscions). Mars in Cancer casts nothing onto Leo and Aquarius (hence cannot see Leo and Aquarius). Any planet in the same sign as Mars (Cancer) is simply said to be in presence with Mars.

Any planet hit by Mars' rays or shadows will be affected in very special ways. The concept of reception or "rejection" apply only to those signs that Mars cast rays onto and the sign he is in (Cancer).

Mars is in terrible condition zodiacally (Fall in Cancer). If Moon happens to be in Taurus, Moon receives Mars and this is a very powerful reception because Moon is in a very good condition zodiacally (exalted) and she loves Cancer (her Domicile sign). Moon is going to help Mars tremendously (receiving Mars) and she has this large resources to do so (Moon is exalted).

Assume that Saturn is in Aries. Now Saturn is in Fall in Aries (an unhapy malefic is really a bad malefic) and he hates Cancer because Cancer is his Detriment sign. So Saturn is going to make Mars' life really miserable, Saturn hates Cancer, hence reject any planet in that Sign. If you are in the house of my enemy, you are my enemy!

Cheerio!

Congratulation for the good explanations, astrojin!

I'm interesting what would you say about Mars in Cancer, Moon in Scorpio (both are in each other signs but both are in fall) in comparison with the example you explained (Mars in Cancer, Moon in Taurus). Which Mars feels better?

reception by detriment or fall

I shall try my humble explanation:

First in order to have a reception we must have: a pulsotio planet (the planet with a greater velocity; typical example: Moon) a receptor planet (the slower planet; typical example: Saturn) a type of application aspect of pulsatio to receptor (I?m referring to traditional aspects)

Now comes the special condition related to the state of the planets participating to this construction.
In my opinion one of the planet involved in reception must have some strength (because for me at least it?s clear that we need this kind of construction when the receptor planet or pulsatio planet is in a bad shape)
One of the planets (it?s in the logic of the construction) can be in detriment or fall (and I would dare to say even in an ineffective- achrematista in greek- house).

Now comes a very personal opinion: I think that we shouldn?t simply ban out receptions that don?t involve strong planets in good shape. The logic behind this technique is that an aspect from a pulsatio to a receptor can improve the state of one of them. Of course I must admit that a reception from a planet in a bad shape is almost useless (like Tom sayings: a drunken man helps another one).
I will come back if things become unclear.

And another thing before I go: I see reception only when either pulsatio has some sort of dignity in the sign and degree of receptor planet, either receptor has some dignity in pulsatio place.
Astrojin, what?s your opinion about this?

BTW Pete: what situation did you have in mind?

Hello,

Hi Zuli:-

I'm interesting what would you say about Mars in Cancer, Moon in Scorpio (both are in each other signs but both are in fall) in comparison with the example you explained (Mars in Cancer, Moon in Taurus). Which Mars feels better?

Before I reply to your query, I would like to mention my current understanding and practice of the dignities...

I do not refer strength or power of planets to their zodiacal state (i.e. essential dignities). Strength and power are referred to the accidental dignities.

There are a few meanings that I associate with planets essentially dignified/debilitated but there is one that (at least for me) I find most important:-

A planet who is essentially dignified is a planet that is full of resources so that it is free to exert its own agenda. Hence, it is "happy". This translates to favourable expressions of the planet in a chart. A malefic (Mars or Saturn) dignified (in its own domicile or exaltation) can bring out a favourable expression of the planet.

A planet who is essentially debilitated is a planet that is low of resources so that it is not free to exert its own agenda. Hence, it is "unhappy". This translates to unfavourable expressions of the planet in a chart. A malefic (Mars or Saturn) debilitated (in its own detriment or fall) can bring out the most unfavourable expression of the planet.

Observe that these dignified (high on resources) or debilitated (low on resources) planet may be strong or weak (depending on mostly their accidental dignities). A debilitated malefic may be posited in a cadent house and not closely aspecting the ascendant which makes its unfavourable expression not acentuated in a person's life.

NOW, back to your example:-

Mars in Cancer and Moon in Scorpio. Both Moon and Mars are in fall. They are really low on resources and really unhappy. Mars loves Scorpio, hence he loves moon and wants to help moon but he can't - he can barely help himself!. The same goes for moon. This is like a man who knocks on a door of his friend asking for help because he is sick only to find his friend in a similar predicament!!! In other words, this reception most probably would not work.

A planet in detriment however, may still be able to help (i.e. receive) another but his help will be unconventional or non-mainstream. An example: Moon is in Capricorn and Saturn is in Taurus. They are in trine aspect. Moon loves Taurus hence, she loves Saturn. Saturn loves Capricorn, hence she loves Moon. Moon is in detriment - her help to Saturn will unconventional or non-mainstream. If Moon happens to rule a treatment in horary chart - go for alternative treatment, etc.

Hello Sasha - I don't think I understand your question...

Thanks Astrojin and Sasha for your responses. The question concerns a woman who has been living with a man for a few years and who is concerned about the success of the relationship and her future happiness within it. She is Cancer and the Moon whereas he is Capricorn and Saturn. The Moon is at 16 Aries in the 10th while Saturn is at 8 Virgo in the 3rd. It is a nocturnal chart so the Moon receives Saturn into triplicity, therefore she accepts him, she is reasonably content with him. Saturn however receives the Moon into fall (or "rejects" the Moon - nice term Astro) which suggests that he not only rejects her, but he may feel resentful towards her or feel that she has placed him in difficult circumstances.
While I agree that reception or it's lack can clarify the way an aspect between significators will work out, I also think that reception alone will show how two people feel about each other regardless of whether or not there is an aspect between them. As we all know, applying aspects show an opportunity for two planets to work together for good or ill; reception shows the willingness (or lack thereof) of the two parties to work together.
In this chart there is no applying aspect and both planets are peregrine. The querent wanted to know if she'd be happy in the relationship and my judgement is that there is little to offer the desired happiness, however the Moon reaches her exaltation (Taurus) in 14 degrees so I expect her to be feeling a lot more comfortable emotionally in a little over 3 months.

Thanks again for all your help, I really appreciate it.
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Pete

Astrojin wrote:

Hello Sasha - I don't think I understand your question...

Let?s take an example with Moon and Saturn

Moon is applying to Saturn.
Now my opinion (in fact is not my opinion, I found it in many astrological works) is that in order to talk about a reception either Moon must be in a sign in which Saturn has a dignity (domicile, exaltation etc.) or Saturn in a dignity of Moon (say for example domicile of Moon), other ways it?s not a reception we are talking about (in my opinion).
And I wanted to know your opinion.

Hello again,

It was John Frawley who made famous the following dictum in horary astrology:-

1) Dignities show power (opportunity?) to act
2) Reception shows intention to act
3) Aspects show occasion to act

[Maybe not exactly - but ...)

My responses are:-

1) Essential dignities show resources to act.
A planet in its own domicile or exaltation has more than enough resources to act. A planet in its own triplicity (trigon) or term (bounds) have some resources to act. A planet in its own face looks like he has resources to act but he actually does not (it's like having power on face value - like the security guard who can stop you from entering a building but can easily be superseeded by the owner(s) or managers or ... of the building). We can also say that a planet in its own face has barely enough resources to act.

A peregrine planet has no resources to act.

A planet in its detriment has resources but they cannot help the planet directly. We can say that a planet in detriment does not have direct resources to act or it may go against the planet's agenda.

A planet in fall is simply in a pit (depression) and simply does not have the resources to even help himself!

2) The accidental dignities show power or strength to act
Angular and succedent planets have the power to act whereas cadent planet has none (or at least very little consequences to the query). Imagine Sun in Leo in 12th. Very high resources but little power. It's like you go to a wealthy friend to borrow money on friday evening and he said yes but you have to wait till Monday because he has to get the cash from his bank (he probably doesn't have his ATM card with him!). You need the money now and he can only give you 2 days later which might be too late for you. High resources (wealthy) but unable to act (money is in the bank).

3) Reception (or "rejection") shows intention (or lack thereof) to act. I agree with Frawley on this but I do not agree with his direction of reception and which planet loves which.

4) Aspects show occasion to act. This is accepted by all horary astrologers.

Now, when I say I want see aspect before looking into reception, I mean any traditional aspect at all whether applying or separating - and this is used in natal astrology not horary. In natal astrology, I use reception to give more layers of meanings to the aspects. Sorry I did not make this clear before!

In horary, reception can be used to see inclination and not occasion to act but (sadly) when a person asks something, they want action. Reception with no applying aspects is as good as nothing (reception + no aspect = wish lists).

In your example Pete, Moon is in 16 Aries (10th house) and Saturn 8 Virgo (3rd house). The ponderous Saturn is not going to do anything. Furthermore, in earth sign it is solid. In mutable sign - he is having doubts, may be he wants to leave, maybe he wants to stay. Moon in tenth (angular) but peregrine in Aries- she does not have the resources to act (or at least the right resources) but she is powerful (angular) - hence she wants to do something about it. But is what she wants to do is wise? Moon in Aries is impulsive and the dispositor of moon is the really unhappy Mars retrograde in Cancer (fall)! Her martial actions might backfire on her! The absence of applying aspects between the significators denotes non-action.

Having said this, Saturn's shadow (Antiscion) is at 22 Aries, and moon applies to Saturn's antiscion which might mean that she can get what she wants by working under the shadows. Do not confront him (don't do martial things) but work towards the relationship in a more "shadowy" way or perhaps just maintain the status quo?

Hi Sasha:

Moon is applying to Saturn.
Now my opinion (in fact is not my opinion, I found it in many astrological works) is that in order to talk about a reception either Moon must be in a sign in which Saturn has a dignity (domicile, exaltation etc.) or Saturn in a dignity of Moon (say for example domicile of Moon), other ways it?s not a reception we are talking about (in my opinion).

Ye...s.
In horary if moon is applying to Saturn and Saturn is in Moon's domicile or exaltation or two of her lower dignities, then Moon receives Saturn or Moon gives reception to Saturn. If Moon is in Saturn's domicile or exaltation or two of his lower dignities, then Saturn receives Moon or Saturn gives reception to Moon. If both occurs, then we have mutual reception. Is this what you mean or (?)

[quote="Pete"] It is a nocturnal chart so the Moon receives Saturn into triplicity, therefore she accepts him, she is reasonably content with him. Saturn however receives the Moon into fall (or "rejects" the Moon - nice term Astro) which suggests that he not only rejects her, but he may feel resentful towards her or feel that she has placed him in difficult circumstances.

Pete,

The lady is the Querent here? The question is about the relationship and the outcome? I'm reading the responses to your queries so if you settle the Reception by Fall issue, what will you advise the lady? She has sought your advice?

She is over invested and he is under invested. If he feels resment and the lady has 'placed him in difficult circumstance' surely he has placed himself there, and no one else is responsible for his feelings? I'm simply curious as to how this would be dealt with in a sensible, truthful and kindly fashion?

Julie K

Hello astrojin

Is this what you mean or (?)

Yes this is the thing that I was tring to explain.
But I was curious to know if you consider that Moon and Saturn are in reception in other cases; say for example: Moon in 13 degree Taurus and Saturn in 16 degree Leo. my opinion is that we don't have a reception here.
In this example do you consider a reception?



Very good your observations about essential dignity. I remember that I had a quarrel with Tom about differences between essential dignity and accidental dignity

Thanks

With the occasion of this thread I went to Zahel to see how are treated all this in his work Introductorium de principiis iudiciorum

In the chapter De receptione planetarum he mentiones:

There is reception when a planet aspects (from his examples I interpreted that is about an applying aspect we are dealing here with) a second planet from the domicile or exaltation of this second planet. In this manner receives its good.
He mentions that there is reception even when the first planet is in the triplicity, or term of the second one.
But he mentions that in order to have reception the second planet must have some dignity in the sign where the first planet is.
And he gives some examples: Moon in Aries aspects Mars who is Aries lord, in this manner Mars receives her, because Aries is its domicile.

Then he gives some example in which there is no reception: Moon or Asc Lord aspects a planet that doesn?t have any dignity in the sign of Moon or Asc Lord (his words are the second planet doesn?t know her- Moon- and doesn?t receive her -non cognoscit eum nec recipit)

He mentions again that there is no reception when Moon or Asc Lord is in the descension of the second planet, because he says that Moon comes from the place of an enemy of the second place and the second planet won?t receive her and won?t esteem her. He gives some examples: Moon in Aries applying to Saturn, or Moon in Capricorn applying to Jupiter

Hello yet again,

But I was curious to know if you consider that Moon and Saturn are in reception in other cases; say for example: Moon in 13 degree Taurus and Saturn in 16 degree Leo. my opinion is that we don't have a reception here.
In this example do you consider a reception?

No. There is an applying square obviously but no reception. Moon does not receive Saturn because 16 Leo is not moon's domicile, not moon's exaltation, not moon's triplicity, not moon's Term (no such thing as moon's Term!) and not moon's Face. Saturn does not receive moon because 13 Taurus is not Saturn's domicile, not Saturn's exaltation, not Saturn's triplicity, not Saturn's Term and not Saturn's Face.

I prefer Bonatti's version of reception.

Examples:

Assume Moon is in 29 degrees Libra.
If Venus aspects moon then Venus receives moon by domicile rulership. If Saturn aspects moon then Saturn receives moon by exaltation rulership. These two are called perfect reception becasue they are higher dignities.

If the chart is nocturnal and Mercury aspects moon then Mercury receives moon by triplicity rulership. If Mars (term ruler of Moon) aspects moon then Mars receives moon by term rulership. If Jupiter (Face ruler of 29 Libra) aspects moon then Jupiter receives moon by Face rulership. These three are called imperfect reception because these three are lower dignities.

NOTE: If you have two of the lower dignities ruled by one planet only then you have perfect reception by that planet. For example if Mars is the term AND trip ruler or term AND face ruler or trip AND face ruler AND aspects moon - we have perfect reception. This perfect reception is what Bonatti keeps mentioning that can alleviate malevolence of a malefic planet's aspect. In our example, if Mars receives moon via perfect reception, the perfect reception abates evillnes of Mars even if Mars squares or opposes moon.

Imperfect reception is still a reception though not as powerful as perfect reception than can alleviate evillnes of a malefic.

Nedless to say if moon happens to receive the planet that receives her, we have a mutual reception.

It's almost ten pm in my place and I am typing in an Internet Cafe. Before I leave, one tricky question for us to ponder;

Moon is in 8 Scorpio (diurnal chart):

Assuming that all planets aspect her. Domicile ruler = Mars, Trip ruler = Venus, Term ruler = Venus, Face ruler = Mars. Mars receives moon with perfect reception (via domicile rulership). Venus also receives moon with perfect reception (via Term and Triplicity rulerships). But Venus hates Scorpio (Venus is detriment in Scorpio). So, what is your opinion? Will get back later tomorrow...


NB:
I only use Dorotheus' triplicity/trigon rulership scheme and Egyptian term/bouns.