Hello.

According to JF Moon close to the 1st cusp favours the favourite and of course close to the 7th cusp favours the underdog. Plus we should consider the Moon's antiscion in a similar manner.
Well, I came up with three charts that were empty as can be, except for the Moon's antiscion falling on the 7th cusp or just inside the 7th house (1.3? at most). First I thought it was a minor testimony for the dogs, however on all three occasions the underdogs lost miserably. All three matches featured huge favourites so I doubt that the favourites were DSC three times in a row.

Is it:
a) Moon's antiscion doesn't matter or is minor
b) Moon's antiscion falling on or close to the 7th cusp actually harms the dogs (maybe because Moon is in Via Combusta)


PS As you all know, JF's book has three parts (minus the specific horse races part). I found out during some practice that for me:

Will I get profit? part works great. At least for now.

Who will win? works OK but needs some work (yea, I know JF is the man yet nothing is perfect ). The man himself writes that he considers the horary approach the most reliable.

The chart for the Event - there are still many questions and limitations. For example, if we're considering the Moon's aspects (L1 aspected by Moon = favourites; L7 aspected by Moon = dogs). In half of today's NBA charts Leo rises. Moon squares the Sun so it is a hey-ho for the faves:

Jan 29th
WAS (F) vs TOR (Fave wins)
DET (F) at IND (Fave)
BOS (F) at MIA (Fave)
PHO (F) v ATL (Fave)

In the other half of charts, Virgo rises, DSC is Pisces and since Moon also aspects JUPITER (L7) within its range it helps the underdog. (The Sun is no longer L1 or L10 so the aspect to the Sun doesn't matter anymore)

NJN v MIL (D) (Dog wins)
CHI v MIN (D) (Dog wins)
HOU v GSW (D) (Dog wins)
SAS at SEA (D) (Dog wins)
LAL v NYK (D) (Dog wins)

All games start at 07 PM or 07:30PM so it's a narrow window, yet the locations are different all over USA so it is not the run-of-the-mill situation. I sincerely doubt that all those dogs will win. Well, maybe the dogs will at least cover their pointspreads (handicaps) That would be nice too.

Aside from the Moon's aspects I did not find anything else worth noting in these charts. The antiscia of the significators, Fortuna etc. are all over the place yet in irrelevant positions.

Also, in this case colors don't work - 4 or 5 teams, one Ascendant. Besides JF himself writes somewhere is his book that he doesn't like the color approach even if it's a stand-alone match. I'm not saying he's right.

Hi Nixander,

I wrote a bunch about my experience thus far with the event method under another post "A Comment on the NFL Playoffs" that bulletbobb started. Check that out.

I view the moon and moon antiscia placement as underdog helpers yes, but it will still likely take more for a 10 pt dog in an NBA game for example to win outright. I'll often taken the spread bet in that case (taking the dog +10).
I'll only take the moneyline bet if I see everything astro in the dog's favor AND I think the moneyline bet is favorable. Meaning if I think the dog can win 1 in 5 times, but the odds are given 8 to 1, and astro is good, then I'll go for it.

I'm working extensively with the event chart method, because I want to review 10+ games a day, and asking "Will I win" charts for each game, while cool, is too generic for such volume.

Thanks for your reply.

Just read your post you mentioned. Pretty cool.

I'm actually using all three methods, believe it or not (event chart, who-will-win, will-I-profit). Since all three are legitimate, why not.

Well, I don't use all three as a rule or anything. If I see a bet that makes me go "Whoa! This should work" I'm using the will-I-profit question because it is quite simply a natural question in a situation I'm pretty confident I will win this wager. If I'm looking at one of my favorite teams but I'm not sure what is going to happen in this particular game, I'm using the will-my-team-win approach, because I can easily identify myself with the team which eliminates the who is ASC problem. And of course the events charts are completely "free" so one can create them for any game any time.

And like you wrote in your post I am trying to find the best charts.

In the event charts POF/antiPOF is the king. Moon's aspects are a bit confusing because the games are played relatively close to each other in time and space (no pun intended ) so that way Moon's aspects are the same as I wrote in the first post. How do you deal with that, anyway?

I'm adding 8 minutes to the start time as far as NBA is concerned. Because that's when the bet market closes. If you're adding 10-15 minutes well I guess I'll just have to look into that.

Tonight I've come up with
NHL
SJ Sharks Moneyline at Edmonton
LA Kings +1.5 at Philadelphia (Moneyline for this one is too scary)

NBA
NY Knicks +9 at LA Lakers
GSW +4 at Houston
MIL Bucks +5.5 at NJ Nets

If these are any good, might add some comments to find out what people have to say.

Hi Nixander,

Sounds like a good system. I'm definitely all for trying these ideas. You just have to really stay consistent to see what works over many weeks. After 50 or even 100 games there can be trends we think we see but in fact are strictly due to chance. After enough trials the good stuff will slowly emerge as significant, and false methods return to chance levels.

Adding 8 minutes is perfectly fine too, I've noticed most NBA games start pretty late but they're not consistent. The nighttime TNT games are often the latest, starting 15 minutes after scheduled time. We can only be so precise anyway, in the end it doesn't matter too much.

I like your hockey games tonight and NBA I like your GS. With some other methods I use I have NYK and MIL about 45%-47% chance to cover the spreads, so when I have conflicting info between astro and regular stats I often pass. I figure if astro can give a 3-5% edge over time, and then regular handicapping can also give 3-5%, perhaps the games where both agree will do better still. I'll keep track of each type and see. Time will tell. Good luck!

Ok, here is my example of how will-I-profit horary works. Dortmund Borussia vs Werder Bremen soccer match was in progress (after HT Dortmund 1-0), so the question goes "Will I profit betting on Dortmund?" (obviously I was willing to lay some money on Dortmund).

Tha chart is: 29/01 22:36 GMT+2 56N57 24E06 (Riga, Latvia)

The chart came up pretty obvious. Moon in the 2nd house sextiles Venus (Lord 1 and Lord 2 I'm interested in here. I do no use the next sign round system if L1 and L2 are the same.) Venus is angular and in conjunction with PoF (Day/Night Formula I use for horaries. For the event chart - day formula only). I'm supposed to win. Borussia won 2-1 despite the fact two penalty shots were awarded to Werder in the last ten minutes.

SJS ml - W (event)
LAK +1.5 - W (event)
NYK +9 - L (event)
GSW +4 - Push (profit)
MIL +5.5 - L (event)

I guess this shows at least to my mind that one should be very careful with Moon's aspects to Lord 1, 10, 7, 4 - if consider them at all. I mean they work but if the games are played relatively close to each other they're not reliable. For example, in the MIL and NYK games Moon aspected Lord 7. Well, it did not help the underdogs. And it makes sense - all games in e.g. Eastern conference share the same ASC. So it is impossible to judge by Moon's aspects which are the same for all charts.

And in my experience one testimony strong as it is does not neccessarily mean the team will win. It is not a lock, it shows which team is favoured. If they are huge dogs, for example, they can manage to tie the game or keep it close etc. Just like you said. It is not a yes or no as in the horaries.

Many years ago I tried the will I win approach when I was living in Reno, Nevada, where sports betting was legal. Never got anywhere with it. Perhaps with an occasional game, but as Video says for any volume it simply won't work. You can't expect the cosmos to line itself up in an appropriate manner every day. Besides, how many charts do you want to do? I agree with Vid: pick one or two methods and get familiar with them.

You might also want to use some standard handicapping techniques to supplement the astrology. In stock market astrology I saw an article by Bill Meridian where he said flatly that astrology alone cannot be used to predict the markets movements. It's too complex. I suspect sports is much simpler, but I think the basic principle holds.

If you want to use something beyond the event chart, check out the diurnal method I mentioned in a couple of posts. That forms a valuable supplement to the game chart as it is a completely different method.

Bob

I am not pushing anything doing a hundred charts a day using all kinds of methods or anything.

The universe DOES line up every day, every hour, every milisecond. Because if it didn't every single chart past or present, every single method would be useless. If you're making a team's birthchart, you're not asking yourself what if the universe was a mess that day. If I or someone else can't read the [horary] chart, just let it go. On the other hand, if I CAN read the chart, I've got myself an answer. Sometimes I get the interpetation wrong of course but it keeps me above .600. Using other methods I was getting nowhere or was at .500 at best.

Nixander wrote:
(yea, I know JF is the man yet nothing is perfect ). The man himself writes that he considers the horary approach the most reliable.

There is something in this statement that reveals that the event approach is unreliable. IF thats' the case it's a funny field to be an expert in. While I see the need to examine the problem of sports and prediction, I do still find it rather a contradiction if the book lays out and documents rules and workings of something that doesn't work. I do admit I am not in the posession of JF book, as yet, but it would appear that we are struggling to replicate results and come up with anything certain and conclusive at this point. The task of isolating those circumstances in which astrology and the event chart actually does show the outfall of the match in advance, seems to be a major challange. I, for one, do not feel I have been able to prove anything but the multitude of considerations that continue to come up and perturb results in unexpected directions. That does not mean that it cannot be done - but the filters of match discression have to be tightened considerably. Even then you are still going to have a hard time being in this game for anything but the sport. My view may change.

Horary astrology is a different approach. The horary chart is like a rare moment of selective focus. I am also more comfortable with the horary chart but then anyone applying the technique would still have to be confident that their pounding was tapping into the question at hand. It is not possible to ask the same question every week. I had two women phone me from the same party last week - on their way out to town. The phone rang twice and they asked identical questions: "What is going to happen with me this evening?" The horary astrologer cannot work like this for long before falling short of options.

Last, a few comments on Meridian's statement, since I worked within this field for almost 20 years. Astrology alone DOES NOT run the stockmarket. The market follows cycles in nature. Astrology does give an way of tapping into these cycles and applying these in terms of market movement.

So to make things easier, can we come up with a simple set of filters?

Nixander wrote:
(yea, I know JF is the man yet nothing is perfect ). The man himself writes that he considers the horary approach the most reliable.
Andrew replied:
There is something in this statement that reveals that the event approach is unreliable.

No, not unreliable, but less reliable.

I do admit I am not in the posession of JF book, as yet

Exactly, and you are making comments on somebody else's incomplete quote. This is what JF actually says (p.73):

"It [horary] is by far the most reliable method but it is only for special occasions. If we wish to predict sports on a day-to-day basis, we need another technique" [i.e. the chart for the event]

While I see the need to examine the problem of sports and prediction, I do still find it rather a contradiction if the book lays out and documents rules and workings of something that doesn't work.

Who says it doesn't work? JF himself points out the limitations of his method. These have been mentioned before but I shall quote them again.

The method works best for finals. "For predicting the results of finals....it performs excellently. From that peak of excellence there is a falling away as matches become more commonplace." "It is not suited for the run-of-the-mill." (p.92)

"The core of the book is the system I have developed for judging the result of a sporting contest using a chart set for the start of the event. This works well, but there is room for improvement. My hope in writing this book is that someone will pick up this system and make the improvement. Onward!" (To the Reader, at the very start of the book)

"I am striving here to teach you all I can. But teaching is not a packing of the brain with information. I can give you the raw materials, but they must be transfomed." (p.118) "Let what I have told you take you as far as it can, then expand this list judiciously as your own experience guides you." (p.117)

JF has explained his method and it's up to us to run with it if we wish to. This is what several of us are doing either by combining it with our own tried and tested methods or testing it out and modifying it through observation and experience.

Andrew said:
There is something in this statement that reveals that the event approach is unreliable.
Ficina said:
No, not unreliable, but less reliable.

Yes' and 'No', Ficina. If all the filters are on and the criteria in place that qualifies a competition as valid to be judged by the integrity of astrology, then the rest should be a piece of cake. That means that Cup finals will be easy from now on, but anything on the way up to the final will not. And if the chart cast for the Cup final isn't clear in any way, the result be be decided by default - or the favourite wins. The event chart can be used for the Premier League, but not lower leagues - and we don't really want any other matches being played at the same time, because then the logo's is out. Actually, astrology may not work on the Norwegian Premier League because the standard of Norwegian football is not as high as in England, but if there is a leauge which is better than the English Premier League, then astrology is sure to work better there. If the lower leagues are not worthy of the consideration of astrology, it is a wonder that an underdog ever turns up in a chart at all. If we are happy with something that works 'half the time', to quote yourself, then nothing is wrong and everything is alright. We can get ourselves jobs performing football predictions for newspapers and be happy with that, but I am afraid it will not stand up to the bar.

But I am not looking for a fight here and I would offer my apologies to anyone who I had treated unfairly - and I sincerely believe we all are looking for a sharpened perception of the practice of astrology. Defining the limitations of our exercises is an important process, but then everything is no longer possible - and talking about the limitations of astrology is seemingly not a popular topic in astrological circles.

Tell me which matches can be predicted and then predict 5 in a row. That would be an excellent exercise - and I don't care whether it is the favourite or the underdog that gets it.

I've exercised in a vast number of fields in my time as an astrologer and predicted earthquakes, stockmarket crashes, the change of throne's, politcal upheavals, the results of election and been most successful - but I do find trying to determine the winner of a game of football by means of the event chart to be one of the most challanging tasks yet. With sports and speculation we truly challenge the random, but if it is 'a wonder every time astrology gets something right' (a quote from JF)- then there would not be much point in being into astrology.

Yes, I needed to air my frustrations due to the lack of knowledge, discipline and perfection, but let's roll up our sleaves and try even harder!

If we are happy with something that works 'half the time', to quote yourself

Andrew, I have never, ever said that. On many occasions, I have said 65% of the time. I would be happy with that percentage, but it's apparent from what you've said that you are aiming higher. So be it.

if it is 'a wonder every time astrology gets something right' (a quote from JF)- then there would not be much point in being into astrology.

Well, you almost got that quote right "That we can predict anything at all is a marvel." (p.93) It's simply a matter of the attitude or perspective that each of us brings to our predictive work. Everybody is different and that's fine.

Regarding your comments about higher and lower leagues etc, I don't think it's really possible to generalise about what can or can't be predicted. Each chart should be judged on its own merits using methods based on our own personal experience and perhaps testing out the experience/methods of others. If we discover that there are certain types of games or charts that are difficult or impossible to predict, then we can choose to leave them aside.

talking about the limitations of astrology is seemingly not a popular topic in astrological circles.

That's interesting. Which astrological circles? Perhaps they should remove their rose-tinted specs

Interesting discussion, Andrew