Hi all,

My frustration at not knowing the birth times for some of my nearest and dearest has reached a peak, and I am tremendously disappointed that I cannot properly investigate their nativities in proper detail without this knowledge.

My frustration is made worse by the fact that someone close to me is also greatly saddened that I cannot ascertain even the Ascendant sign, let alone the degree, and he cannot extract the information from his parents because they are both deceased.

I don't believe in the arbitrary method of setting unknown birth time charts for noon or sunrise.

I have little faith in rectification methods, because I have tried them on my own chart and they produce charts at great varience with the chart for my nativity which is calculated for the time at which I know I was born based upon reliable information from my mother.

This is why I wish to turn to horary. I believe that anything can be answered via horary, if only we have the methods of analysis necessary to draw conclusions from the chart. This is why I ask, what methods could be used to try to determine, either the time that a person was born on their birthday (which I imagine would involve the counting of degrees and minutes between significators), or the sign that was Ascending at birth?

Has anyone attempted to answer such questions? If so, what conclusions did you draw and by what method did you come to this conclusion?

I am sure I will be repremanded and told that such questions cannot be asked of horary, but I don't know what else to do. Horary has proved itself reliable to me in the past, it is a method of finding answers that I trust. I just need to know how to find the answer (at least theorectically) to such a question through horary.

Can anyone help?

I have tried this. If you read Christian Astrology, Lilly talks about finding birth-times (don't know what page offhand, but in the section discussing the 5th house). As an experiment, I did it for a friend who thinks he was born 'somewhere between 2 and 4 am', which is hardly useful for a chart as it covers three ascendants! So I did a chart using Lilly's rules and actually came out with indications of a *diurnal* birth time (all feminine signs, feminine rulers, a certain part of the chart, etc), meaning my friend was probably born *after* sunrise, not before. However, my skill in this area is very poor, so it was well beyond me to figure out the ascendant beyond that point, other than to guess that it might have been Taurus rising, which doesn't really 'suit' him, although Gemini might. Physiologically he is much better suited to Aquarius or Sagittarius, both of which are signs covered under his original 'between 2 - 4 am' comment.

Not much help, sorry!

Ptolemy describes a method of finding the ascendant in Tetrabiblos III.2. I haven't tried it so do not know how reliable it is. It involves the syzygy most immediately preceding the birth, either the full Moon or new Moon.

My frustration at not knowing the birth times for some of my nearest and dearest has reached a peak, and I am tremendously disappointed that I cannot properly investigate their nativities in proper detail without this knowledge.

Yes, it is frustrating ? and annoying. I think ?annoying? says much. We want the power and control provided by facts and accurate data. But we often, and maybe even usually, can?t have it. So we work with what we have. For some time I have felt that we are too hooked and dependent on the birth chart provided by a known birth time (and the accurate house system). There are other options. In looking at charts with known birth times I usually also look at the solar chart. I use the solar sign and not Sun-as-1st ?house-cusp chart. If we know the person, or have had a few minutes to observe a new acquaintance and their mannerisms and demeanor or learn their life story, we have plenty of material to fill in the blanks that a solar chart inevitably leaves.

I believe that anything can be answered via horary, if only we have the methods of analysis necessary to draw conclusions from the chart.

If not anything (or everything), then maybe much can be answered with a solar chart with the right methods of analysis. The key would be in finding the right methods. For example, we may not be able to make exact predictions about marriage and life partners from a solar chart, but in the solar chart we may be see something very illuminating that connects well with the person?s statements ?my ex-wife was a controlling b****? and ?my girlfriend is always telling me what to do?. Ex-wife and girlfriend ? you don?t need to be an astrologer using an accurate birth time in order to see the tendency in this case. It?s maybe a matter of a little less astrology and more observation and common sense. I?m not so sure astrologers like that idea.

The use of horary to find the birth time may be interesting and informative, but you still end up with ?maybe, maybe not?. You still don?t know the if it?s the actual birth time. It?s still in question. So why bother?

Hi Draco I was just looking through the list of posts for something else and I came upon your inquiry re time of birth. I douse with a pendulum quartz. The method I ask "is it before such and such a degree or time" ie. minutes and keep asking until I get another response. Is it before 16 minutes past is it before 15 minutes past sort of thing. I find this method reliable.

Stan

I don't have book 3 of CA, so no comments on what Lilly says about rectifying a birth chart from that book.

Using material from Books 1 and 2 of CA, here are some techniques Lilly might have used to rectify a birth chart when the date of birth is known, but not the time:

First, use the material in Lilly where he describes the Signs of the Zodiac.
One of the traits of the signs says Corporature. This describes the body type and appearance of the native. Don't take the descriptions of colors too literally, because our descriptions of colors do not correspond with 17th-century descriptions.

This should give one or two possible ascending signs.

Next, use Lilly's Scars, Marks and Moles to find a possible Mark of the Moon. Check the potential ascending sign against the Mark of the Moon. Of course, you will need the native's cooperation in this venture.
If the Mark of the Moon appears on the back of the body, the Moon was below the horizon at the time of birth. If the mark is on the front, the Moon was above the horizon. This can confirm or eliminate one of the possible ascending signs.

Now locate the ascending degree, using Lilly's instructions on Scars, Marks and Moles. You may have more than one possible ascending degree (mark of the Ascendant) within one sign.

Finally, use Lilly's instructions to locate the mark of the sixth house cusp.
Once this mark is found, the effect will be to pinpoint the degree of the ascendant with precision.

Your native generally needs to be mature (age 21 or above) and relatively free of overall scarring/moles/marks for this method to be effective. Older natives may gain numerous marks over the lifespan which would make it more difficult to locate the correct marks.

If you want to gain practice, have a rectification party with a few of your close friends at a pool party. Don't know what to tell you about those Scorpio marks. Use your discretion.

Well wishes,

Pam