HI

Same result, i used kepler and astro.com.

Ascendent 11'12' Virgo

??

robin
________
HOW TO ROLL BLUNTS

Hi tom

you can play around with the 'time zones' at astro.com

LMT - gives the virgo rising

and

GMT/universal - Gives cancer rising

At astro.com, they use the swiss ephermeris they say
'manual time zone settings are not recommended. Most likely a false chart will be the result'. So not GMT?

So do you think LMT is wrong?



robn
________
Weed Vaporizers

hi tom

ok so if you use THE Swiss ephermeris for 4.41 you get

Gmt - 8'50 can 12'21' 19' Jup and sat
Lmt - 11'12' vir 12'24'22' jup and 12'22'54 sat

so after playing about a bit

LMT for the grand conjunction is 11.33am
both at 21'21'19

so have i wasted your time here, apologies?

before looking into the grand conjunction theory i wanted to ensure the chart was right!

robin
________
How To Roll Blunts

Hi Tom,

I am feeling quite dumb here. I somehow managed to find the two planets first coming together at 09.28.41 on 18/03/1762 for Washington LMT. That gives me a Gemini rising ASC of 08'49.

Where have I gone wrong?

Mark

I get 8 50 Cancer

using solar fire to list as "transits to transits" the exact conjunction the time is 16.41 GMT in London

Then relocating to Washinton DC
time is 11.31.51 LMT

13 Virgo rises in London though at that moment.

Thanks

I clearly should have checked an emphemeris rather than twiddling with solar fire manually for this kind of fine tuning!

Mark

I know this post makes me sound a bit of a dog with a bone but I am still really uncomfortable with the idea that any 'base chart' for 1762 should be focused on Washington DC. A Philadelphia based chart makes far more sense. We are discussing about 2 degrees difference here so its not insignificant if you are looking for precise 'hits' on the angles etc.

The case for Philadelphia:

1 Washington DC did not exist in 1762 and was not the US capital for nearly 40 years after this conjunction. Work did not begin on the new proposed capital until 1791. In the meantime another Saturn-Jupiter conjunction had come and gone in 1782. If you insist on a chart focused on 1762 you need it based on a place in actual existence at that time in my view. If you want a conjunction 'base chart' focused on Washington DC you need to wait until 1802.

2 Philadelphia with a population of around 30,000 was by far the largest town in colonial North America and possibly the whole of the Americas prior to the revolution. It remained the largest American city until it was overtaken by New York in the 19th century.

3 Nearly all the important developments relating to the revolution and framing of the constitution are based here. In particular the First and Second continental Congress met here and of course the Declaration of independence and the Articles of Confederation were signed here. Legally and politically the United States Of America was given birth in Philadelphia.

4 Moreover, some of the very first ideas for a union between the states can be traced back to Philadelphia. William Penn first suggested this in 1696! At the Albany Congress of 1754 one of the delegates from Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin, put forward a plan for a union of the 13 colonies. Franklin supported his argument with America's first political cartoon. Franklin argued that the British colonies needed to unite if they are to survive against the French. He suggested a colonial government, made up of representatives from each of the colonies under the leadership of a president general appointed by the British king. Such a body, as imagined by Franklin, would have had the power to negotiate with the Indians. It was to be allowed to raise troops and build forts to protect British America. And to pay for this programme, it was to have the right to levy taxes on the colonists.

Ok that is not a declaration of independence. Still it clearly shows the origins of a more autonmous political thinking that would later develop.

If we are going to argue a ?base chart? for 1762 both common sense and historical realty mean it should configured for Philadelphia.

Having said all that I still think the Sagittarius rising (Sibley) chart produces some remarkable hits. Surely, the 9/11 attacks showed the worth of this chart?

Thanks for the update on modern Philadelphia. I wasn't even aware it had gone down hill so much. What would the founding fathers say? It hadn't even occured to me that associating the chart with Philadelphia would somehow tarnish this approach. I was looking at the issue from a historical perpective. Thats not say I am totally convinced by the 1762 date either.

You state

The conjunction is not a chart for a single event. It shows how the influences will play out for the places that it is set for. I don't see it as a "birth" chart, and this is where all the arguments come from. Where and at what time of day was the US born? I'm not persauded that there is any one such moment and therefore a more broad based approach is a good way to go.

I suppose considering the disagreement on a USA chart its not diificult to understand why John Frawley proposed such a radically different departure. A grand conjunction chart (whether for 1762, 1782 or 1802) does seem to help cut through the gordian knot of competing historical charts. Generally, though this is not the way I understood mundane astrology operated in defining a national destiny over a long period. At least as I understand it. Other people here are clearly better read on the Arab and medieval techniques. However, I thought a Saturn-Jupiter conjunction was only descriptive of a 20 year cycle just as a solar return only covers a year? Is there examples from the tradition of using this for longer time frames?

Utilising the grand conjunction of 1762 does seem to make rather a special case for the USA. For example you objected earlier to a chart for a conjunction in 1802 because the American character was well established by then. No doubt true but not persuasive. The British character has been evolving for centuries yet we generally rely on a UK chart from 1801.

Still, I don't want to sound too negative so for the sake of harmony I am happy to give the chart you propose a go as long as we keep other charts in mind too. In particular I want to support the utility of the Sibley chart here looking at key moments in US history.

You state:

While a couple of degrees may throw off "hits" I don't agree that "hits" to an angle of a base chart give us the precise date that events occur. Events unfold over time. They do not explode all at once when a planet tumbles over a point. There isn't a chart in history, natal or mundane where every event in the life occurs at the precise instant of the perfection of a progression or a transit or direction to an angle. Sometimes they occur before the hit and sometimes after, sometimes not at all. I recall Morin noting that, in the year he was killed, King Adolphus was "under the influence" of a hard direction. The perfection of the direction didn't kill him, it signaled the potential for danger - that's all.

You are right in many respects. Most predictive methods like primary directions, secondary progressions, solar returns, solar arcs, profections, fidaria all just seem to show generalised influences that need specific triggers. Even then the variable meanings of astrological symbolism make it hard to specify how a particular thing will manifest.

I think Morin is spot on that transits and lunar returns are important indicators for fine tuning the picture and I would therefore expect an accurate chart to respond to these. However, even here we can't expect astrology to work like clockwork even if the actual heavens do. Thats probably just as well as I am sure few us want to live a destiny that is that completely fated. On the other hand we need our astrology to produce some meaningful insights about future events or it loses much of its purpose.

In my mind, the test is not, does it meet a particular defintion of just what should be accurate, but rather: does it work? I think this chart does work well if used in the fashion in which it was intended. It is probably not the only chart that can be used for the USA, it is certainly not infallible, but I think it is in contention for one of the better ones.

I have no arguments with empiricism. Thats the acid test of any chart.
after all. Lets try out some key dates. I have collected quite a few I will post up later for people to try out on the grand conjunction chart(s).