Colour confirmation - Chelsea are wearing white. I'd guess that would still give them Desc.

Yes, you are right, thay wear whitewith blue lines, and that fits with Ve(blue, white) in Pi(white).

Well, that was interesting
Arsenal - Liverpool 1-1
Fenerbahce - Chelsea 2-1

I go back to saying that the relationship between the LHr, Mercury, and radical ascendant, Scorpio, showed mischief in that match (Fenerbachce own goal/Chelsea playing best). The chart was not radical. It looked SO good for Chelsea, and then Fenerbahce delivered two underdog goals from out of the blue. In my opinion Chelsea seemed closer to 3-0.

Oh well, no prize collect - but very interesting all the same!
We appear to have given Chelsea the des. (?), then what happened?

We appear to have given Chelsea the des. (?), then what happened?

Presumably Venus (L7) opp POF worked against them. That's the usual effect of oppositions and JF did say it was worth monitoring.

Glasgow Rangers - Sporting Lisboa, 18.45 GMT
Odds: 2,15 3,25 3,25
Asc 12LI55 MC 17CN57 Moon 12PI28 POF 10VI59
Game starts on the Dy of Jupiter and Hr of Mercury.
The chart is not radical [check out Fenerbahce-Chelsea!] and may move the result away from the favourites. POF closest aspect is sextile Mars, L7, but the also opposite Moon, L10, within a 2 degr orb. The exalted Sun sits on the cusp of the 7th.

I would have to look out for the guests.

Bayer Leverkusen - Zenit St Petersburg, 16.30 GMT
Odds: 1,65 3,55 5,15
Asc 27VI46 MC 27GE07 Moon 11PI09 POF 24LE38
Game starts on the Dy of Jupiter and Hr of Venus. Venus rules the ascendant by triplicity and opposes the ascendant by aspect - the chart is radical. Mercury, L1+L10, is in the 7th, which is an angular house and in advantage the home team, but Venus is in her exaltation and sits on the cusp of the 7th, the guests.
POF is conj SN - advantage the underdogs. There is a mix of testimonies, and although Leverkusen are strong favourites, seeing that the radicality of the chart is proven by triplicity, maybe we get a draw.

HORARY. WILL ZENITH BEAT BAYER?
MOSCOW, RUSSIA
03-04-2008 07:11 GMT

ASC=14CANCER00'
Chart is radical.

ZENITH occupy ASC, because I support Zenith.

Ruler of ASC MOON in power position right on MC.
Overall Accidental Points +5.
AntiMOON on SouthNode.(-)
MOON square POF(?)

Ruler of DSC SATURN in less favorable position - he separate from IC.
Overall Accidental Points 0.

POF in midpoint of MOON and SATURN.(DRAW?)
ME, ruler of IC, significator of case end, in SUN's beams.
Also ME in power of MARS co-significator of ASC.

My verdict is DRAW. (Andrew, I 've writed before your post:))

PS. POF in power of ME (L10 from DSC) and SATURN and in detriment of JUPITER (L10 from ASC). MINUS for ZENITH.
JUPITER (L10) is on DSC. MINUS for ZENITH too.

Ficina said:
Presumably Venus (L7) opp POF worked against them. That's the usual effect of oppositions and JF did say it was worth monitoring.

To monitor is 'to watch'. It isn't quite the same as understanding or being able to make a decision or a prediction. It is like a 'stand by'. I don't recall anyone saying that Fenerbache would win. Now the matter concerning POF was one of the questions we were asking and I am 100% up for anything that adds to the discussion, but at the same time I am dubious to smokescreens - including my own! The reason I mention this is because I was in the fog and want to get out of it!

You made a point (re. JF) that favoured Fenerbache and the chart was not radical (me) - and yet we failed to see that they would win! Did JF predict Fenerbache, or is he scratching his head like the rest of us? Probably. Why do we, in example, go for the favourite on basis of the strength of L1 or L10, and then when it goes wrong we say "Ah, the chart was not radical!"? Or the other way round, the chart is radical and then favorite looses due to some other testimony in the chart? Now OUR reason for doing this is, of course, that we are a research team and our mission is to test all the theories out and answer these questions. So in that sense, any idea submitted for examination in this forum can be perfectly justified.

The problem is that to every matter there is not a simple 'yes' or 'no' but all the testimonies must be balanced up to pass judgement on which way the verdict will swing. But how to add it up - that is what we are asking. Many astrological conclusions are refered to as the judgement of the artist, but we expect this judgement to reflect a level of understanding. Our teaching requires that we agree upon certain rules and that the astrologer does not simply pass judgement according to fancy.

My goodness I do think we are doing well and a lot of good work. Fenerblahce-Chelsea was complicated and I think that everything that has been said was in its place, but I am still looking for that edge that will take the clouds away from my eyes and help me improve my judgement or find a certain truth.

Anyone got any ideas for tonight?

Did JF predict Fenerbache, or is he scratching his head like the rest of us? Probably.

No, he would have got it right. As I said, he always gives the Asc to the faves. Therefore Fenerbahce were the Desc and the Venus/POF aspect worked in their favour, which is exactly what he said he'd observed in his experience using his method. Different methods produce different conclusions.

Why do we, in example, go for the favourite on basis of the strength of L1 or L10, and then when it goes wrong we say "Ah, the chart was not radical!"?

Is that the royal "we", Andrew? That's definitely your own personal approach. There are many different approaches and methods and as you rightly say

any idea submitted for examination in this forum can be perfectly justified.

all the testimonies must be balanced up to pass judgement on which way the verdict will swing. But how to add it up - that is what we are asking.

There's the rub, and it's a problem we have with astrological judgements whether it's natal, horary or an event chart. This is why I was trying to work out a hierarchy of testimonies.

Our teaching requires that we agree upon certain rules and that the astrologer does not simply pass judgement according to fancy.

True, but as Lilly said, we need to combine discretion with art. I see this as applying a modicum of common sense, while at the same time trying not to be too subjective.

Predictive work is very challenging but therein lies the fun

To be precise, JF wrote that RULER of ASC is opposed to POF is bad, but oppose to antiPOF is good.
Seems I remember the game where Ruler of DSC in opposition POF. I'll try to find it in my archive.

Is that the royal "we", Andrew? That's definitely your own personal approach. There are many different approaches and methods and as you rightly say

I put myself in the firing zone there with purpose. I introduced the question of radicality, but it seems that the question is equally applicable to other contradictions in the chart, ie. L1, L10, L4, L7, POF, AntiPOF, etc. Then I assume we are all working at the same problem.

The point I am trying to get at is whether we are ready to sort out the jumble.

Did JF predict Fenerbache, or is he scratching his head like the rest of us? Probably.

No, he would have got it right.

Would he? Would have, but didn't. No one said Fenerbache would win. There are 4 UEFA cup matches this evening. Using JF's method's can we get 3 or 4 games right? Anyone want to take a shot? Any underdogs in sight?

There's the rub, and it's a problem we have with astrological judgements whether it's natal, horary or an event chart. This is why I was trying to work out a hierarchy of testimonies.

Yes! My very point! Good response, Ficina! Thank you!

HORARY. WILL ZENITH BEAT BAYER?
MOSCOW, RUSSIA
03-04-2008 07:11 GMT

I think Zenith will win.
L1 is right on MC in angular house, while L7 is in cadent house and rx. Moon is fast, Sa rx also, but it is not "normal" for Sa, so Moon is in better position.
Accidental dignities for Moon=14 for Sa rx=1.

I do not see AntiMOON on SouthNode

Goca wrote: I do not see AntiMOON on SouthNode

YEs, It is my error.

UBER wrote:To be precise, JF wrote that RULER of ASC is opposed to POF is bad, but oppose to antiPOF is good

No, he said they're both bad, i.e. they favour the Desc team. See p.88 of Sports Astrology to see exactly what he says.

Seems I remember the game where Ruler of DSC in opposition POF. I'll try it in my archive.

Please do, Uber. It would be good to have some more examples. I think Gem said she had some examples too?