Hi Kirk,

I agree with much of what you've mentioned.

Also think there's a distinction to be made between vocation, one's calling (10th) and the day-to-day grind/labour (6th).

A vocation is an occupation for which a person is suited, trained or qualified. It is also the inclination to undertake a certain kind of work, in response to a perceived summons; a calling. This type of vocation is either professional or voluntary, that is carried out more for its altruistic benefit than for income, which might be regarded as a secondary aspect of the vocation, however beneficial

The trine between 2-6-10 is a practical one. In addition, you'll also find modern astrologers, eg. Noel Tyl, referencing 6th - for example, in natal chart Moon in 6th is indicative of a workaholic yet regarding 10th for vocation.
I think care needs to be taken with the piece-meal approach as it's a sequential flow.

So why do astrologers skip this the house of labor and send all employment questions directly to the 10th?

I'm not sure they do. However, when considering a natal chart astrologers are often more interested in identifying the person's calling/vocation - their potential - and steering them in that direction rather than dwelling on the daily routine.


And if that daily routine is regarded as drudgery, then naturally an outcome can be illness, eg. can't stomach it any longer. And this also affects value/worth (2nd).

In addition, Mars rejoicing in this house means it's not a house devoid of being able to take the initiative, along with the hours of labour.

Business owners often work longer hours than their employees and frequently start from the ground up.

Kirk
You said my thoughts sounded like modern astrology( I haven't even read a single line written by S Forrest by the way). Actually using the 6th house for work is the modern one, which is not based traditionally. The 6th is for slaves, labourers, AC's employees; and all professions and trades are represented by the 10th, however menial.

We apply to others for a job and are completely at their mercy and judgment

Still completely different from being actual slaves. We take on the job of our volition; it's not forced on us. We have the freedom to quit or choose different postions. We can't project feelings onto the house(even if we feel like slaves). If someone enjoys and loves their work, can they use 5th for their work then?

How can a weak house like 6th(not beholding the AC, under the horizon) be used to signify your social expresions?

Hello Kirk and all,

I have been doing quite a number of horary charts that concern work and vocation (one's calling). I dare say that if I were to assign ALL every day work questions to 6th or to 10th exclusively, I'll get half of them wrong. In some cases I used the 6th and in other cases the 10th (my clients have not complained!). I still have this nagging feeling that your job is partly a form of modern slavery (in ancient times, you do your tasks and your master "pays" you in terms of taking care of your basic needs whereas in modern times, you do your tasks and your employer pays you monthly or daily).

The tenth house is the highest place the sun can reach (during the day) hence, it is reserved to your calling i.e. vocation. The differentiation can be seen from your natal chart. If you are already above 40, check your 6th house and 10th house and see for yourselves. Usually, if the domicile or exaltation ruler of your 10th does not aspect the tenth house (or your main luminary, or your ascendant or your lord of ascendant), your vocation or profession may remain latent...or you simply do not have a mastery.

The 2nd, the 6th and the 10th houses must fall in the same element (using whole sign house system, of course). Hence, the triad of money, labors/toils and vocation/professionare connected (making it quite difficult to isolate your income, labors and profession into three neat compartments). All three houses have the same triplicity rulers. On this account, they are similar. Using the concept of tripartite temporal unfolding of Robert Zoller (where each triplicity ruler governs a third of the areas ruled by the houses). So, the first trip ruler of 2nd, 6th and 10th (all the same) governs the first third of your financial, labors/toils and vocational/professional life. The delineation is the same for 2nd and 3rd triplicity rulers...

In horary charts, I simply resort to the 10th house for profession and esp. when a person asks about a new job or his career development. I may use the 6th if it is more appropriate (e.g. if the 6th really describe the nature of his current work/labor). Having said this, MOST of the time when a person asks about his current job, I would look into the tenth simply because this is the house of employment and of employers!

This is where "relativity" seems to play a role...You can see yourself as the worker/slave and your job as something your labor (6th house) or do you see yourself as being a subject of our employer (1oth house).[/i]

Hi, Astrojin

So, is my understanding that you are using whole sign houses for horaries ?
Do you use what work for base ? Sahl ? Mashal?h ?
Are you getting better results than with REgiomontanus, or you simply never used any division system ?
Thanks,
Yuzuru

TS,

It?s nice to hear from you again after a long absence. I had recently been wondering about you.

Quote:
So why do astrologers skip this the house of labor and send all employment questions directly to the 10th?

I'm not sure they do. However, when considering a natal chart astrologers are often more interested in identifying the person's calling/vocation - their potential - and steering them in that direction rather than dwelling on the daily routine.

I do believe there is a difference between 6th house jobs and 10th house vocations or callings. With natal work it would be natural to look at the 10th for vocation and calling. In my previous posts I mentioned natal astrology, but my main focus ? what I?ve had in mind in this thread, whether I mentioned it or not ? has been horary and electional work. There?s no way I could see using the 10th house to answer a question such as ?Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work?? That is pure 6th house workplace stuff ? there?s nothing 10th house about it. The procedure of always using the 10th for work matters just seems lazy to me and is an avoidance of looking closely at what is actually being asked.

In addition, Mars rejoicing in this house means it's not a house devoid of being able to take the initiative, along with the hours of labour.

The matter of Mars? joy is interesting; I hadn?t considered it. Mars can take the initiative in the 6th, and, utilizing the trine to the 10th or reception involving Mars and 10th house planets and ruler, can act toward achievements in the social sphere. In that sense Mars moves out of the 6th and becomes involved in a larger realm. A weak or dysfunctional Mars in the 6th can keep the Mars energy and activity in the 6th and focused on ?good enough for me?. Maybe the excessive dryness of Mars could keep the person cut off from true social engagement and participation, and locked in the strictly personal interests of work-place gains ? including such unsavory activities as stealing company property, sexual conquests, and using company time and computer resources for posting at an online forum . Just some thoughts there.


Gem wrote:

You said my thoughts sounded like modern astrology( I haven't even read a single line written by S Forrest by the way). Actually using the 6th house for work is the modern one, which is not based traditionally. The 6th is for slaves, labourers, AC's employees; and all professions and trades are represented by the 10th, however menial.

What I meant was that your thoughts sounded like what one often hears in modern psychological astrology. I was hearing the modern ideas of ?we all contribute, we all participate in and (implied) give to our society just by our existence?. You know ? the ?we are all special? sort of thing. To that way of thinking we all are automatically entitled to full 10th house benefits. That instantly elevates us from lower case teacher to upper case Teacher just because we were hired by the Smithville school district. I?m saying that we applied to the school district to be a 6th house teacher and later may become a 10th house Teacher through our dedication and efforts.

I think it is appropriate to approach this differently in natal work. In natal astrology I would look to the 10th for work indications, but this is work as in vocation and calling. In doing so it?s obvious that we aren?t looking for indications of the Smithville schools in the natal chart. Natal charts are often concerned with more general themes, not always or even usually the particular and specific. So the 10th serves for Teacher or teacher in the natal chart. Horary and electional charts more naturally narrow the focus to the particular and specific.

As Astrojin wrote, the world of work is very different now. People probably fall in love, get married, have children, have affairs and die in pretty much the same ways they always have, but since the Industrial Revolution the creation of workplaces for the masses and monstrous corporations with thousands of cubicles doesn?t fit the old model of farms and cottage industries. But it?s too easy to focus on the negative. We now have a vast array of ways to avoid those cubicles through entrepreneurship and creative endeavors. This is one case where it?s correct and necessary to say that things are different now regarding traditional astrology. The funny thing is that the foundation was already there with the 6th as service to and dominance by others, and the 10th as a way of rising above and out of it.


Astrojin,
Thanks for the reply. I?ll be taking a look at the 2-6-10 triplicity rulers in my whole sign chart.

In horary charts, I simply resort to the 10th house for profession and esp. when a person asks about a new job or his career development. I may use the 6th if it is more appropriate (e.g. if the 6th really describe the nature of his current work/labor). Having said this, MOST of the time when a person asks about his current job, I would look into the tenth simply because this is the house of employment and of employers!

The last sentence has me confused. I?m curious to know which house you would use for the example horary question I posed earlier ?Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work??

Would anyone else care to give their house preference for that question? To me it?s not only a work question [There may be a lot of upheaval with shifting duties and responsibilities.], but it?s also more specifically a workplace question. I just can?t see putting the workplace in the most elevated house in the chart ? the house of honors and kings ..... You know.

I need to soften a bit the distinction I made between natal and horary charts. The horary chart can sometimes be used somewhat like a natal chart when the birth time isn?t known. Here?s Lilly on page 450 of CA on ?Of the Profession, Magistery or Trade any one is capable of.?:

Country people many times have not the time of their children?s Nativities, yet being desirous to know what profession such or such a Son is fittest for, they may repair to the Astrologian for satisfaction herein: Upon the time of their demanding the Question, erect your Figure, and therein consider the ascendant and his Lord, the Lord of the 10th and 10th house, ....

So here is the 10th as vocation and calling in horary. This is ?Teacher? as opposed to ?teacher in Smithville?. Once it?s decided that the kid will thrive as a superb brick-maker, (I say) any questions the grown boy may have upon repairing to the astrologian concerning his workplace and the schemes of his fellow brick-makers would be answered by the 6th house.

But what especially interests me in the Lilly quote is ripe for a new topic thread: The parent is asking the question, but the child is apparently given the ASC. as significator. Judging by the horary threads I?ve read here and elsewhere most students and even practitioners would use the ASC for the parent, the 5th house for the child, and the 2nd house for the child?s 10th.


Now, for those of you who have repeatedly answered the question ?Will I get the job?? with a high rate of success using the 10th house: How about considering the thought that you were actually answering a different question?

In attempting to land a certain employment position we are in reality trying to please and convince the employer(s) that we are the best choice. At the same time we are hoping to defeat the other applicants in the contest for the position. Our endeavor is to acquire the position; naturally, we want to know if we will be successful in our endeavor. You see, it?s not a question of just being given something. It?s a matter of being successful in your intentions, attempts and actions. The 10th house is the house of success. Since oracles aren?t dumb, they?re really quite clever, the horary chart knows that your question ?Will I get the job?? is more accurately ?Will I be successful in my attempt to get the job?? Does this mean that we can often skip other houses in other questions and use the 10th for our answer? Probably. There is the tradition of the 10th house indicating success in the matter. The simplicity is delightful.

Hi Kirk,

I can see more clearly now that you are actually proposing a rather more subtle distinction than I had thought. This is interesting and I certainly agree with 6th as daily grind, routine, and working environment, depending on the context (an interesting distinction you make between "the workers" vs an entrepeneur or actively ambitious person).

Perhaps it is modern-day wishful thinking to say we all use our 10th house - indeed many people have very low or non-existent aspirations - possibly due to apathy and/or lacking an understanding of their true strengths - or "vocation", something which seems to have been forgotten in the current educational climate. In fact out of 5 close friends, only one has gone on to use her degree to gain relevant employment at the level of which she is capable. I think the 10th is about what you want to do/become - it is about aspirations. Perhaps the point here is that not everyone is in touch with those aspirations.

In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.

I think "What type of job would suit me" should still be judged from the 10th, as it is about the best possible outcome, "vocation" as I would understand it, not the work someone might settle for (6th).

What other work-related questions does anyone have on file which could be brought into the discussion as a practical exploration? I only have "Will I get the job" type questions...

Keren

Hi Yuzuru,
In natal astrology I use whole sign house system exclusively except in determining power of a planet.

When a planet is in a cadent house by whole sign house but not in Alchabitius (my favorite dynamic house system) - I do not take the planet as being totally cadent. A planet is cadent if it is cadent in both whole sign house and Alchabitius. This is especially important when delineating length of life via hyleg and alchocoden.

For example, if I see Venus is in the 9th by whole sign house and in the 10th by Alchabitius (or if you prefer Placidus/Regiomontanus), the power of Venus is not totally "cadent" or weak as it is goaded towards activity (using the term Robert Schmidt used in his leacture). THIS IS ONLY USED IN DETERMINING POWER. When delineating Venus, I would say that Venus is in the 9th house (as it is in the 9th by whole sign house) and hence, Venus is locally determined to the 9th i.e. the presence of Venus in the 9th will modify the meaning of the ninth house. The presence of Venus in the 10th (by Alchabitius or what whatever dynamical house system) is NOT going to affect the 10th house whatsoever...

In horary astrology however, I haven't made my stand yet. Horary astrology was practised by the medieval astrologers using dynamic house system (Alchabitius - Bonatti, Regiomontanus - Lilly) but I am moving towards whole sign house system for the topical analysis of the house but I still use Alchabitius for determining power and effectiveness.


Hi Kirk,

In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.

I am sorry fior being confusing. When reread my post - I was confused myself!.

OK.

"Will I get the job" - If it is just a job (the client would have to confirm this), 6th house. If it is a career move then I include the 10th house.

Astrojin,

Thank you. Your approach makes good sense.


Keren,

So I did ok?

kerenhappuch wrote:In context then - how would you differentiate in practise? The most common question is "Will I get the job?" This can still be judged from the 10th, as Kirk points out.

I think so. The 6th shows your vocation and events in the work place, but the 10th shows how you can apply your vocational knowledge.

You might be a carpenter, but you could be in cabinetry, or making furniture, or building houses, or working as a set designer for a movie studio.

If you have a degree in chemistry, working for a pharmaceutical company is not the same as working as a crime scene technician for a law enforcement agency.

In both cases its the same skill, it's just applied differently.

I have seen nothing in the older books to suggest that the 6th is our work on any level.

Chapter 22 of Abu'Ali Al-Khayyat: The Judgments of Nativities is title, The Native's slaves and subordinates, and the significations of the sixth house.

Chapt 30: The Native's dignity and work, and the things signified by the 10th house.
Chapt 31: The Native's place in the kingdom(AC and MC).
Chapt 31: The Native's prosperity and power(AC and MC).
Chapt 33: The Native's profession(AC and MC).

All the references to status and work/trade/profession all refer to the ascendent and the midheaven, and the position of the moon. Nothing about the sixth, except for slaves, servents, illness, and animals.

In book 2 of CA, William Lilly lists professions both high and low under the 10th house in chapter LXXXIV. He does list farmers under capricorn for the 10th in book 2, as well as farmers under the 6th house in book one. But I believe that again it is your farm hand for 6th, and you as a farm hand 10th.

The difference between high jobs like king, CEO, and successful entrepeneur verses, janitor or 7-11 clerk is based on the planets dignities and aspects, not 6th vs 7th.

Hello everybody!

CCAG VIII/4, Rhetorii Aegypti capitula selecta, pp. 126-174 (Giuseppe Bezza?s translation)

Il sesto luogo ? detto misero declivio e prodysis ovvero luogo che ? tramontato prima [del luogo del tramonto] o prokataphora, che ? caduto prima e metakosmios o intervallo tra i due mondi e Cattiva Sorte. Insegna sulle infermit?, sui servi, sui nemici, sui quadrupedi e talora anche sulle attivit? per il suo trovarsi in trigono destro rispetto alla culminazione superiore.

The sixth house is called misery, declining or a place that sets first after the occident, or prokataphora a place that is first cadent, and metakosmios or the interval between the two worlds and it is a place of captive destiny. It is significant for infirmity, serves, enemies, quadrupeds and also for activity for being in right trigon with respect to superior culminating place