Hi Kirk,

Thanks for your warm words & kind thoughts ? greatly appreciated! Apologies for the delay in responding.

I believe we?re very much in agreement when comes to 6th and 10th.

As you've indicated, there?s interpretive differences between natal, horary, electional and to add, mundane.
These differences akin to a shift from the inner realms (natal ? where we embody all the cogs in the wheel) to the external (horary etc, where we are often represented by one cog in the wheel), which also involves an adjustment in perspective & requires a certain clarity as to what?s being asked and why when using a particular branch. Context.

For example, servants (6th) serve ? and this house is involved when it comes to the service industry/sector, in addition it?s more ?behind-the-scenes?, not so much on public display. And the service industry includes bank tellers, customer service, chefs, labourers etc through to physician/GP/MD eg. Lilly: ?we usually find that Mars & Venus in Conjunction in this house are arguments of a good physician?.

If someone serves a customer they are for the time they render that service a ?servant?. This is their role .
In a service organization they?re not usually in direct contact with the head (Ascendant) but do routinely and directly report to some higher authority (eg. 10th).

Maybe the excessive dryness of Mars could keep the person cut off from true social engagement and participation, and locked in the strictly personal interests of work-place gains ? including such unsavory activities as stealing company property, sexual conquests, and using company time and computer resources for posting at an online forum . Just some thoughts there.

Lol!!! Sounds like the early imaginings for a saucy screenplay ?

Sirius-ly ? ? alternatively, maybe the treadmill is simply a bridge to their ?higher calling? ? or maybe there?s a double-bodied sign in the mix and they have several irons in the fire while lording over a desk.

which house you would use for the example horary question I posed earlier ?Will there be a lot of lay-offs at work??

I?d look to the 6th ? in addition to what you?ve mentioned about the workplace, lay-offs also point to the health of an organization.

Kind regards,
TS

servants (6th) serve ? and this house is involved when it comes to the service industry/sector, in addition it?s more ?behind-the-scenes?, not so much on public display.... If someone serves a customer they are for the time they render that service a ?servant?. This is their role .

All the work we do in society, how high or lowly, any proffessions/occupations, not even the ones which are called the service industry, don't they ultimately involve serving other people, giving something of ourselves to society? Any work exists because there are needs/demands for it; becuase there's someone who requires it.

Gem,

don't they ultimately involve serving other people, giving something of ourselves to society? Any work exists because there are needs/demands for it; becuase there's someone who requires it.

Hence, everyone has 6th house in a chart.

However, not everyone has that field emphasized.

The 6th is a "behind-the-scenes" house - it has no direct connection to the public projection of the 1st (the "head") and is, in derivative houses the 12th (also a "behind-the scenes" position) in relation to the public, open, one-to-one 7th.

This is the guts (lower belly), the 'intestines' of an organization - if there's a blockage here in the 'behind-the scenes' processes that are essential to facilitating the provision of services it can result in a bottle neck which can easily bring an organization to it's knees (10th).

Mars rejoices in 6th - and the "behind-the-scenes" service (servant) area within an organization is one of the first places a "razor" gang is deployed when cost-cutting.

And precisely because it is a "behind-the-scenes" area it doesn't always receive the attention (1st) or the kudos (11th) it deserves.

Context.

Organizational hierarchy.
The primary position from which a service is provided, and the nature of the service that's provided.

If the "head" of the organization (who's function/role is different to those behind-the-scenes) was going down the gurgler, we'd look to the public 1st or if it's executive management, the 10th.

If we were talking about roving reporters, direct sales etc (which are more publicly visible roles) the 3rd.

But here we're talking about lay-off's in the workforce, the labour market, we're getting into the guts of matters within the functionality of an organization, the 6th.


Kind regards,
TS

It seems to me that this argument is based off of perspective. "What? You don't really like your job? Oh, well, that's the Sixth house then." Is this correct?

To me it seems rather silly to specifically ask a client before doing anything work or career related: "Hey, by the way...do you enjoy this job or do you just go there for the heck of it?" The problem with this is I find it difficult to see a job nowadays as "toil" or even anything close to the ideas of "slavery" originally signified by this house as today we can always find a new job and quit the old we don't like. This is still an option. Slaves, on the other hand, did not have this choice. It's work or be punished. The only type of leave awarded in slavery was death.

So, if we pursue or job (sixth house, apparently) with exuberance and enthusiasm, it magically becomes the Tenth house because we enjoy it so. However, could the same not be applied to other things? Let's say I'm koo-koo for archery and I'm so very passionate and enthusiastic about it. It's something I openly project to the world, is that also my Tenth house? I'm not just an archer at the local archery range, but an Archer (capitalized) because I enjoy it so.

Perhaps a bit apples to oranges there (admittedly), but something to consider on the terms of perspective.

Tumbling Sphinx wrote: Context.

Organizational hierarchy.

But here we're talking about lay-off's in the workforce, the labour market,

I didn't have this specific question in mind when I wrote yesterday.
There are different contexts of course, and also differences, as you rightly pointed out in your earlier post,

there?s interpretive differences between natal, horary, electional and to add, mundane.

I do agree Mundane is a diferent kettle of fish. Since this is the Horary section, when we generally consider work-related Horary questions, or even nativities, I wonder if it's really necessary to differentiate as you do, or divide the work into two categories: behind the scenes part and the public 'exective management' part.

everyone has 6th house in a chart.

And 10th

Tenth versus sixth for work is a topic which has stirred up a lot of interest in several of the lists where I have been a member.

We've had several articles in the news locally in the past few months making the point that "slavery" is still alive and well in modern, "free" countries like ours. There are networks of criminals acting illegally to bring immigrants here to the USA, for exanple. Once they arrive, these immigrants have no papers to gain rightful employment and are monetarily deep in debt to their escorts. The often live in overcrowded conditions, lacking privacy or comfort to our way of thinking (say twenty or more to a small dwelling) arranged by their escorts. They are carted to jobsites where their work papers will not be questioned; they work menial jobs as temporary laborers for a fraction of what people with proper papers can bring in, and most or all of it goes to pay their debt to the escort.

Their lack of recognition in our paper-oriented society makes them personna non grata. They do not feel confident about approaching authorities with their problem because they are equally vulnerable of being accused of lawbreaking.

Just wanted to throw that into the stew. Apparently there are still situations where the use of the sixth house for slavery could apply.

I use the tenth for the querent's employment apart from slavery, myself.

Best regards,

Pam

Maybe this will help. Legally, as an employee, you are under a Master-Servant relationship (at least under US civil law). The Master is responsible for the actions of his servant, so if you injure a customer or damage their property, the master is liable for those damages, and the servant can be terminated (his employment that is).

Also, employment is generally at-will, meaning you can be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason at all, the point being that like a slave, you have little or no control. Contrast that with your profession, over which you do have control (factoring in physical and mental limitations).

Hi, Yossarian

Your comment makes sense, theoretically. I think most of us have difficulty applying those principles to chart interpretation in practice, though.

So, to apply your comments, if the querent is asking about the employer, the employer or "job" is in the tenth house.

If the querent is the business owner asking about an employee, the employee is found in the sixth of the querent. Is this what you are saying?

The difference between at-will employment and slavery, as I see it , is that in at-will employment, either party (employer or employee) can discontinue the relationship "at will". Slaves who are not able to terminate their employment at will seem more similar to prisoners than to employees.

What do you think?

spirlhelix wrote:I think most of us have difficulty applying those principles to chart interpretation in practice, though.

Sure. In natal and progressed charts you have to look at the 2nd, 6th and 10th, the signs, the rulers, dignities and aspects.

spirlhelix wrote:So, to apply your comments, if the querent is asking about the employer, the employer or "job" is in the tenth house. If the querent is the business owner asking about an employee, the employee is found in the sixth of the querent. Is this what you are saying?

Horary astrology has its own rules. The significator for the querent is usually represented by the planet that rules the rising sign. Other significators represent other people/things. I don't fully understand horary astrology, but others here do.

spirlhelix wrote:The difference between at-will employment and slavery, as I see it , is that in at-will employment, either party (employer or employee) can discontinue the relationship "at will". Slaves who are not able to terminate their employment at will seem more similar to prisoners than to employees.

Generally speaking, yes, that was true for chattel slavery practiced in the US, not necessarily for the type of slavery practiced in the Roman Empire or in muslim countries.

I suppose there are two ways to discuss this. Firstly, clarifying the traditional understanding through the sources and secondly affirming our personal experience. I am going to take the easy route at this stage and simply relate my experience.

In career/job questions I personally, use the 10th house exclusively in such matters and have been completely satisfied with the results. In fact I have always, found job related horary questions using the 10th house amongst the clearest and easiest to reach a judgement on.

However, like all good debates there are points to each sides case.

Here is a link to Christopher Warnock's Renaissance Astrology site where he justifies the use of the 6th house for the majority of job related horary questions. Kirk's view is clearly not unique. I believe Warnock studied with Lee Lehman.

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/willigetthejob.html

http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/jobexample.html

Thanks, Mark

I use the tenth for employment questions, too. But now I am curious: Lilly used the sixth for tenants. Back then, I think tenancy was different than it is now.

Tenancy nowadays tends to be "at will", to borrow a term from employment law. In Lilly's day, it was less so.

Actually, I use the seventh for any questions involving a contract, so "Will Mr. X become my tenant?" is a seventh-house question in my book.

Is there a time when you would look to the sixth house to find the relationship between the querent and the quesited? Do you use it for relationships between people, or anything other than illness and small animals?

I'm curious.


Regards,
Pam

Hi Spirlhelix,

If the subject of tenants and the 6th vs 7th house interests you here is a link to a thread where this subject was discussed at some length previously.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1989

I follow the logic of your point that employment contracts could be seen as a 7th house matter. Especially, as people reserve the right to give notice to their employer at any time. Nevertheless, irrespective of job security or length of contract I would still go with the 10th house for horary. For most of us employment is not just a contract but the way we are perceived in the world around us.

Of course this kind of speculation could be taken in other directions. What about workaholics who totally identify with their job? Should we look at the 1st house for our sense of identity?

I do think whatever decision we make on house designation its important to be consistent. Otherwise we are going to be clouded with indecision.

I confess I have limited practical experience of 6th house matters. Issues covered in this house traditionally are illness, people providing any kind of service for you and small animals (ie pets). In hellenistic astrology both the 6th and 12th house were indicative of slaves you owned. I suspect that is where the later association with tenants and the 6th house comes from. Whether that is still valid is discussed in the link above.

One general point I would make here is that this is the horary thread not the natal. Horary tends to be more rule driven and black and white so we can deliver clear decisive answers. Natal work is far more open ended and obviously would require a more flexible approach. I think this discussion will get rather confusing if people drift into natal examples.