I really think astrologers need to get together and develop a standard for rectification for country natal charts. An accurate rectification for the US should include territorial acquisitions (Gadsden Purhcase, Alaska Purchase, Louisiana Purchase, Florida and annexation of Texas), all 4 assassinations, at least 6 military conflicts plus the Civil War, 9-11, the resignation of Nixon, the Supreme Court's ruling on Brown v Board of Education, Marbury v Madison, In Re Dred Scott, and Roe v Wade, plus constitutional amendments, and financial actions, like the creation of the Federal Reserve, and both departures from the gold standard (1933 and 1974).

Thanks. A couple of useful additions to the list I am compiling there. Your right a lot of people forget important territorial expansions of the USA. The territory gained after the Mexican-American war for example which added much of the current western USA.

Too much focus on war , assaination or earthquakes can ignore the real positives. For example, Neil Armstrong walking on the Moon and the completion of the Union-Pacific Railway. I am not sure about an astrological consensus though. Astrologers generally have an unremarkable knowledge of history. On miltary conflicts I think you will need a lot more than 6. The US have been involved in 6 military conflicts since Vietnam alone.

The bigger problem is the different ways astrologers work. Just think of the differences around planetary rulerships, aspects, houses, outer planets alone. In predictive terms apart from transits should we give primacy to secondary progressions, solar arcs, return charts or primary directions? What about lunations and eclipses too?

I was reading Michael O'Reilly's book on the USA Scorpio rising horoscope yesterday. The fact he relies on asteroids so much is something I find quite off putting as a traditionalist. Thats not a criticism of his astrology its just not the way I would assess a chart.

Do we consider an aspect working using aspect type or the planets involved? Which planet is ruling a Scorpio rising chart? Do the astrologers use midpoints, lots, fixed stars or asteroids? What house system are they using? The list of differences is endless.
Maybe astrologers working from a medieval and/or renaissance perspective could find enough common ground to assess charts.

I think rectification is only much use if you have a small time frame. The July 4th chart seems almost a hopeless case to me.

I don't think the salvation lies in more rectifications. Nicholas Campion is right in criticising the overemphasis on rectifications in mundane astrology. We should put more focus on locating accurate historical data. Its an interesting discussion actually. I may post Campion's comments on this as they are quite controversial.

Of course rectification has a place. However, too many astrologers will jump to rectify a chart without considering the historical validity of the chart in the first place. The Gemini rising chart and the numerous rectificatiions proposed for it is a classic case in point.

MarkC wrote: I am not sure about an astrological consensus though. Astrologers generally have an unremarkable knowledge of history. On miltary conflicts I think you will need a lot more than 6. The US have been involved in 6 military conflicts since Vietnam alone.

The real issue is what exactly can you see with a natal chart using predictive techniques? Can you tell when someone has a bowel movement? No, of course not, and the point is that it isn't possible to see everything, because many things are insignificant, unimportant or incidental. I suppose there are astrologers who might actually try to assign an asteroid as Lord of the Loo, or create the "Part of Water Closet," or something like that.

The US has been involved in about 128 conflicts where military units were deployed, but many of those, like the Korean War and the Vietnam War are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, just like the dozens of conflicts involving native Americans.

If someone wants to see all of those conflicts, then I recommend casting natal charts for each of the branch services, the army, marines, navy and air force. Or better yet, cast a chart for the War Department/Department of Defense.

I see a lot of cases where astrologers inject their personal feelings into political events which clouds their judgment and biases the chart reading. I hope they don't do that for clients. I understand that some people feel strongly about the assassination of Martin Luther King, but the reality is there isn't much difference between his death and the murder of Sharon Tate by Charles Manson and his family, and neither would necessarily appear in a country natal chart any more than the death of a beloved sports figure or entertainer would. On the other hand, if the death of MLK was a conspiracy involving renegade persons in government acting without authority, there might be an indication of that.

MarkC wrote: In predictive terms apart from transits should we give primacy to secondary progressions, solar arcs, return charts or primary directions? What about lunations and eclipses too?

I use transits, secondary progressions and solar arcs, and sometimes solar returns.

As an example using my current USA natal chart project (with Sagittarius rising), on January 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM EST, the Solar Arc Ascendant will be conjunct natal Venus ruler of the MC, Solar Arc MC conjunct natal Jupiter, ruler of the ASC, transiting Uranus trine natal Uranus (orb = 6' of arc), Solar Arc Venus quincunx the MC (orb = 1' of arc), progressed Moon trine natal MC, and progressed Venus square natal Moon (orb = 4' arc), while Solar Return Moon conjunct natal ASC, Solar Return ASC conjunct natal Jupiter ruler of the natal ASC, Solar Return Venus conjunct Solar Return Uranus (all orbs less than 30' of arc except where noted and although I allow 3 degrees for solar returns, the orbs are 1 degree or less).

Based on that (and other major and minor aspects I didn't list), I'd say Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the USA. The election of the first female president would be an historic event, and it should be denoted by several major aspects without the need to resort to asteroids and theoretical planets or parts/lots. If it doesn't come to pass, I have the wrong chart and will have to start over. If it does, I might be on the right track, especially if other events come to pass.

Anyway, there should be half a dozen to a dozen Ptolemaic aspects across transit, secondary, solar arc and return charts without the need for extraneous chart points for any major event in a country's history.

I would be embarrassed to present a chart and claim that a semi-quadra-sesqui-septi-binovile-decile-partile square or some crap like that was the only link among 5 charts to a major event like 9-11.

MarkC wrote:I was reading Michael O'Reilly's book on the USA Scorpio rising horoscope yesterday. The fact he relies on asteroids so much is something I find quite off putting as a traditionalist.

I find the asteroid lovers and the Uranian group with their theoretical planets to be totally useless. They need to put up or shut up. A lot of that stuff is just money oriented. Create a "new technique" or dredge up old crap then repackage it as new to sell lots of books and lessons, and strut about pompously at conventions.

MarkC wrote:Do we consider an aspect working using aspect type or the planets involved? Which planet is ruling a Scorpio rising chart? Do the astrologers use midpoints, lots, fixed stars or asteroids? What house system are they using? The list of differences is endless.

One should be able to rectify or interpret any chart using the Sun, Moon, Mercury through Pluto, the Vertex, and the Nodes. If it's necessary to resort to parts/lots or asteroids, someone's grasping at straws.

MarkC wrote:Of course rectification has a place. However, too many astrologers will jump to rectify a chart without considering the historical validity of the chart in the first place. The Gemini rising chart and the numerous rectifications proposed for it is a classic case in point.

Yes, it's quite astounding and mind-boggling that someone claiming to be an astrologer would even consider Gemini rising. With Sagittarius rising and progressing the chart backward, transiting Pluto and Uranus were in the 2nd and 4th Houses respectively during an economic depression in the colonies, and the rest of the world was also experiencing slight economic difficulties due to a liquidity crisis involving banks, not domestic or international corporations and not international finance.

When Uranus comes back to the 4th House in 1842, Pluto is in the 4th also, and we have the Great Depression (of the 19th Century). It started as a very long recession that eventually rolled into a depression about 6 years later and ended just prior to the Civil War, about 1857 or so.

When Uranus comes back to the 4th House a 3rd time, Pluto is in the 8th House and we have the Great Depression (of the 20th Century), with a transformation of corporations and international finance, not banks or the domestic banking system.

In each of the three previous Uranus transits, there were crop failures caused by weather phenomenon (like the Dirty '30s in the US with the "Dust Bowl") causing shortages which drove food prices up although that was not the proximate cause of the recessions. " By 1850 one traveler wrote, "Eastern Virginia appeared to have suffered the ravages of a great war or an attack by another horseman of the Apocalypse. I traveled for 50 miles on horseback and could find nothing but abandoned farms and plantations with buildings in decay and fields overgrown with nettles and brush. Mother Nature is reclaiming that which for 200 years has been giving food and clothing to man."

I don't expect people to know everything about everything, as that's unrealistic, but for rectifying country natal charts, they need to spend the time to do some research

Very soon Uranus will come back to the 4th House again, and Pluto will be in the 2nd House, just as it was during the world economic crisis of the 1760s. If the past is any indication of the future, then the US should experience a severe economic depression lasting 12 -15 years, but no one will see that with a Gemini or Scorpio rising chart.

The US has been involved in about 128 conflicts where military units were deployed, but many of those, like the Korean War and the Vietnam War are insignificant in the grand scheme of things, just like the dozens of conflicts involving native Americans.

I dont agree in respect to the Vietnam war. This was after all one of the USA's first experiences of military defeat (although the war of 1812 was certainly a US defeat too from a Canadian perspective). The withdrawal of the last US marines from the embassy in Saigon and the subsequent fall of the South Vietnamese regime represent an historic nadir for American foreign policy. Of course this should be tied into concurrent US domestic issues such as Watergate and the resignation of Nixon.

I understand that some people feel strongly about the assassination of Martin Luther King, but the reality is there isn't much difference between his death and the murder of Sharon Tate by Charles Manson and his family, and neither would necessarily appear in a country natal chart any more than the death of a beloved sports figure or entertainer would. On the other hand, if the death of MLK was a conspiracy involving renegade persons in government acting without authority, there might be an indication of that.

I wouldn't expect the assassination of Martin Luther King to compare to a Presidential assasination or other major event connected to the Presidency. On the other hand for the black population of the US ( approximately 12% of the total then) this man represented probably the most important figure in America. The other examples you give dont compare or come close to emotional impact this must have had for black americans.

I see a lot of cases where astrologers inject their personal feelings into political events which clouds their judgment and biases the chart reading

.

I think total objectivity is an impossible ideal. Equally, we all have our strengths and weaknesses in terms of knowledge. A financial astrologer probably perceives things I don't even understand. Let me give you an example of this kind of gap in knowledge. I was reading recently about the Spanish influenza epidemic of 1918-1919. I was shocked to discover that far more Americans died of this virus ( 675,000) than the combined US military casualties of WWI and WWII. Global estimates of death through this pandemic range from 20 to 100 million. However, this pandemic is often ignored by astrologers because it was a catastrophic public health issue rather than something usually within the radar of mundane astrology ie politics, economics or military conflict.

I use transits, secondary progressions and solar arcs, and sometimes solar returns.

As an example using my current USA natal chart project (with Sagittarius rising), on January 20, 2009 at 12:03 PM EST, the Solar Arc Ascendant will be conjunct natal Venus ruler of the MC, Solar Arc MC conjunct natal Jupiter, ruler of the ASC, transiting Uranus trine natal Uranus (orb = 6' of arc), Solar Arc Venus quincunx the MC (orb = 1' of arc), progressed Moon trine natal MC, and progressed Venus square natal Moon (orb = 4' arc), while Solar Return Moon conjunct natal ASC, Solar Return ASC conjunct natal Jupiter ruler of the natal ASC, Solar Return Venus conjunct Solar Return Uranus (all orbs less than 30' of arc except where noted and although I allow 3 degrees for solar returns, the orbs are 1 degree or less).

Is this the July 4th chart or something later? What time are you actually working with?

Based on that (and other major and minor aspects I didn't list), I'd say Hillary Clinton will be the next president of the USA. The election of the first female president would be an historic event, and it should be denoted by several major aspects without the need to resort to asteroids and theoretical planets or parts/lots. If it doesn't come to pass, I have the wrong chart and will have to start over. If it does, I might be on the right track, especially if other events come to pass.

Well I admire your confidence. I think its quite tricky relying on the disputed natal data. How about the simple Democrat vs Republican issue. Have you looked at the party charts? I have had a quick look but but I wouldn't feel that confident to state much yet.

Anyway, there should be half a dozen to a dozen Ptolemaic aspects across transit, secondary, solar arc and return charts without the need for extraneous chart points for any major event in a country's history.

I would be embarrassed to present a chart and claim that a semi-quadra-sesqui-septi-binovile-decile-partile square or some crap like that was the only link among 5 charts to a major event like 9-11.

Yes I noticed Michael O'Reilly has to resort to sesqui-quadrates and semi-squares to support the Scorpio rising chart. Not including his heavy reliance on asteroids. I need to give Solar arcs more focus as I have tended to rely on transits, progressions and return charts.