I would have to agree with this:

Clearly human beings have an innate tendency to create order out of chaos or the purely random. The ink blot test and Sabian symbols confirm this for me. I appreciate this is a rather dangerous argument as many would suggest the same principle applies to astrology in general. Nevertheless, it is when astrologers go over to totally nebulous things like Sabian symbols that I feel like giving up and joining the sceptics.

as well as this:

I, or anyone, psychic or non-psychic, can give our own images and impressions and come up with similar stuff, vague and cryptic, and they can hit and miss. People can find them meaningful if they want to.
But as been pointed out already, nothing to do with astrology.

I think much of the time people who pursue the divinatory arts try to look for deeper and deeper meanings in, say, a chart; and much of the time, especially in horary, the answer is *already right there in front of them*, with as much meaning as anyone should ever reasonably need.

Humans do make things as complicated as possible ("Yeah, but..." being my least favourite two words in the world, when combined...This usually means the person is digging in their heels and refusing to see the answer) and often refuse to see what is simple and obvious, in place of what is complicated and, in the case of the dog with borrowed eyeglasses, absolutely mystifying.

But if people 'get' something from them, I don't see the harm in it. Whatever floats your boat. I prefer the I Ching when I want interesting symbolism, however...

Cheers,
GH

Just want to ask how many psychics can come up with the same symbols, or at least share the same themes in the Sabian Symbols? Unless a considerable number of them do, doesn't that mean S Symbols are only subjective and personal to the person who channelled them?

I think its okay to accept revealed truth as a useful framework every once in a while. Certainly 1.1 billion Muslims do it with a revelation that came only once around 1300 years ago, and they're not asking how many psychics can come up with the Sura on the Cow.

It would seem fairly easy to test the Sabian symbols, at least in terms of how people self-report. You could ask a group of people who have their Sun on the same degree to read a description of that symbol, and one five or ten degrees away, and see how many folks pick the correct one for the degree of their Sun. It would help to use a fully detailed description, like the one offered by Lynda Hall, and not the highly abstract ones offered by Marc Edmund Jones.

For example, my ex and I have the Sun on the same degree, 24 Capricorn "A Woman Entering a Convent". I have done extended periods of time in isolated conditions. He not only entered the convent - he runs the darn thing (he is a high priest of a coven.)

Sure, there are always going to be purists who agree with Al-Biruni:

When this boundary is passed, where the astrologer is one one side and the sorcerer on the other, you enter a field of omens and divinations which has nothing to do with astrology although the stars may be referred in connection with them.

But isn't it more fun to go beyond Horatio and his narrow philosophy once in a while, particularly if so many folks have explored the system and seem to like it? This seems to the whole point of the defense that Cornelius is making for horary in The Moment of Astrology, which I am currently reading.

Sunny Dawn wrote:I think its okay to accept revealed truth as a useful framework every once in a while. .

Yes it's absolutely OK, I woudln't criticise you for doing that, but for me, I wouldn't accept anything as 'revealed truth' unless it comes from a reliable source, such as from Enlightend beings, backed up by genuine spiritual teachings, and definitely not from anyone who claims to have merely psychic abilities. I would first understand and test the teachings.

Certainly 1.1 billion Muslims do it with a revelation that came only once around 1300 years ago, and they're not asking how many psychics can come up with the Sura on the Cow

I don't konw anything about Islam, but this sounds disrespectful to Muslims becuase the revelation didn't come from any 'ordinary' psychic.

Gem,

In no way do I intend disrespect for Islam. What I am saying is that Elsie Wheeler's trance relevation may be as relevant for her believers as Mohammed's was for his, even though her influence on world culture was in no way equivalent. Modern Muslims will point out how the Prophet revealed modern DNA. 1300 years from now the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

But I like that cute little turn of thought of yours.

Very sweet of you Sunny Dawn I know you didn't intend disrespect for Islam; I just wanted to point out that being psychic doesn't necessarily mean the person is spiritually evolved.

the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

Exactly. I respect those who have faith in them and offer my belated apologies to you Sunny Dawn, for calling them rubbish

Sunny Dawn wrote:Gem,

In no way do I intend disrespect for Islam. What I am saying is that Elsie Wheeler's trance relevation may be as relevant for her believers as Mohammed's was for his, even though her influence on world culture was in no way equivalent. Modern Muslims will point out how the Prophet revealed modern DNA. 1300 years from now the Sabian Symbols may prove just as useful - who knows?

But I like that cute little turn of thought of yours.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't have an issue with using symbology to derive deeper meanings for things. In fact I do an Afro/Cuban style of divination with shells in which each sign is basically a myth (or series of myths) that one is supposed to decode for meaning - although by now each sign also has some inherent meanings as well.

I don't think astrology is the best for this kind of thing. What attracted me to traditional astrology is that it is very technique-based. Modern metaphysics exaggerates the importance of intuition to the extent that if one uses a technique-based system (like traditional astrology), then they are thought to be missing "larger truths" whatever that means. In fact I have a psychic friend and we have fun arguments about this all the time.

Traditional astrology is capable (in experienced hands) of coaxing more detail than modern astrology without using outer planets, astrology, abstract symbols, or anything else of that nature. If you understand the meanings and significations of signs, planets, houses, and fixed stars, you can usually pull out what you need.

I have Angelus' book and it is very good. The symbols for decans were often used for making talismans. The Picatrix has this list as well (the decans not the degree images) as well as images for the Lunar Mansions. I suspect that one of the uses for the degree symbols were also used for making talismans. Chris Warnock talks about making personalized talismans based on the degree of the ascendant.

The irony is that the Sabian Symbols' namesake, the Sabaeans of Harran, were very influential in medieval astrology and had nothing to do with psychic channeling.

I don't konw anything about Islum, but this sounds disrespectful ... I know you didn't intend disrespect for Islum ...

Not all beliefs are equally worthy of merit: one may critique one or more tenets of a particular belief system without intending any disrespect toward the religion itself. However, for the record, it is spelled ISLAM, not ISLUM. To repeatedly misspell the name of a religion might be interpreted as a form of disrespect toward it. One can disagree with the religious beliefs of Muslims without ridiculing the religion.

I apologise for having mispelled the name in English (have corrected them).

PS I know 'apologise' is spelled 'apologize' in the USA

Sunny Dawn,

So much to comment on here with the Sabians. I was a skeptic - err well No, I just didnt 'get the Sabians' at all. That was until I went to our local Astro Group Meeting and Lynda Hill was speaking on them. She handed out her book on the Sabians to all there and began to speak. After about 10 minutes I was hooked and the book I believed I didnt ever want I had to have! Lynda is a very convincing speaker indeed!

As we walked across the road a Police Van was outside the Meeting Place and the Police Officers were in the process of putting two offenders into the Paddy Waggon' as we say and locking them up!

The first question Lynda was asked was about the degree 18 Libra! She could speak up without any reference to her book!

'Two Men Placed Under Arrest Give an Accounting for Their Acts Before The Tribunal of Society'. Quite uncanny but it's true.

Another thing is: Elsie Wheeler was taken to a park in San Deigo and Dane Rudyah was her 'wheeler'- Elsie was in a wheel chair!

Something else: The Egyptians knew from the 400s the Earth was not flat and they had sailed their ships down to Madgascar - Latitude 27S - they knew of the Polarities, But if you lived in Europe you had to wait till the 1600s to have this knowledge!

Julie K

Mithra6 wrote:

I have Angelus' book and it is very good. The symbols for decans were often used for making talismans. The Picatrix has this list as well (the decans not the degree images) as well as images for the Lunar Mansions. I suspect that one of the uses for the degree symbols were also used for making talismans. Chris Warnock talks about making personalized talismans based on the degree of the ascendant.

Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones.
No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology .

Gjiada wrote: Angelus degrees work because they depend on stars rising with signs, and the same Picatrix ones.
No spirits, entities, masters at all. Just (Arab) astrology .

But shouldn't they be used sidereally then? Those rising stars have changed tropically since the days of Picatrix (or Arabs).