Hello Mark,

Maybe we should establish a motto 'one piece of solid research is worth a thousand rectifications'.

Most excellent! Does the field of astrology have any mottos? Astrology schools and conventions are good places to start spreading one around, for example, next month?s UAC. It could be the astrological ?motto of the decade?. Since this decade is almost over, be ahead of your time and propose it now for 2010 to 2020. There can probably be found a planetary configuration or ingress of the decade to reflect and legitimize the motto (no fair fabricating new asteroid meanings).

Incidentally, what astrologers do you think are reliable? The most scrupulous on researching out charts I have found to date is Nicholas Campion. He will not use a chart without a reliablre written source.

Fortunately, reliable astrologers do exist. Many are right here on this website, Deb Houlding, Ben Dykes, Kim Farnell to name but a few. Definitely Nick Campion, too. His neutrality in presenting the data for each chart (in Book of World Horoscopes) is impressive. Usually a good sign of open-mindedness, which is a first order for accurate research.


Hello Granny,

So contrary to many myths about the document it was not signed on the date it was voted on

Have you seen this week?s episode of ?John Adams?, the HBO mini series based on the epic biography by historian David McCullough? I have not seen it, but am told there is a description of how the Declaration of Independence was signed which is true to history (from letters and diaries of the signers). It is in episode 7 approximately 45 to 55 minutes into the program. It may begin to dispel that particular myth, especially if schools use the film in history classes, which is their habit.

Kind regards.
Darlene

Hi Granny,

So contrary to many myths about the document it was not signed on the date it was voted on,

Yes that point has been noted before. The astrologer Julian Armistead has probably done more genuine historical research in this area than anyone else. He has argued for a July 2nd chart to be given consideration.

Campion states Armistead originally argued for a 4.00pm chart due to the late attendance of a delegate he researched. However, he seems to have stepped back from that a bit. I haven't received my copy of the book yet but I understand David Ovason in his book ''The Secret Architecture of the Nation's Capital'' makes a case for a July 2nd chart too.

There is more detail on the so called 'Armistead chart' on this
Astrodatabank link:

http://www.astrodatabank.com/nm/USA.htm#ArmisteadJuly

Hi Darlene,

Fortunately, reliable astrologers do exist. Many are right here on this website, Deb Houlding, Ben Dykes, Kim Farnell to name but a few. Definitely Nick Campion, too.

Oh I totally agree. My question was ,more specific though in reference to mundane or political astrology? Does anyone have any recommendations? There does not seem to be many astrologers working in this field compared to other areas.

While I find Michael O'Reilly very interesting and worth reading his lack of rigour would make me question quite a lot of his assumptions.

Most excellent! Does the field of astrology have any mottos? Astrology schools and conventions are good places to start spreading one around, for example, next month?s UAC. It could be the astrological ?motto of the decade?. Since this decade is almost over, be ahead of your time and propose it now for 2010 to 2020. There can probably be found a planetary configuration or ingress of the decade to reflect and legitimize the motto (no fair fabricating new asteroid meanings).

Well I hope I can retain the impetus that long! Its stange but I only seem to have become obsessed by accurate data collecting since the beginning of this year. I'm sure my Solar return chart is at the bottom of this with both Virgo rising and a Virgo Moon.

Dane Rudhyar and Liz Greene took Sagittarius rising but US as a country is not really that philosophical.

Bad astrology. Americans at this time might not be philosophical, but they were then, just as they were religious, optimistic, just and freedom-loving, but they could also be impatient and hot-headed.

13 original colonies

12 original colonies. The colony of Carolina had a civil war and split into north and south, then reunited, then split administratively, then reunited then split on friendly terms.

Anyone who has Libra rising (or Libra-Scorpio planets) represents the national identity of America, JFK, Liz Taylor, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates of Microsoft (Scorpio with Mercury in Libra) are a few examples.

So, um, I should be an alcoholic and drug abuser like Liz Taylor, a philandering immoral liar like Bill Clinton, an incompetent leader like JFK whose sexual appetite for East Bloc women would make a Russian blush, and a fraud like Bill Gates? No, I don't think so.

All of you with Cancer MC have Libra rising. Those of you with Leo MC can also relate to most of the article. Liz Taylor and Charles Manson (Scorpio) represent the two sides of USA.

So we're going to ignore the previous 200 years of US history?

The U.S. has an outward personality of a beautiful, peace loving woman who does not like any hassles and is very serene to look at. However, underneath that sophisticated look is the vindictive Scorpio side which becomes very self-destructive when provoked. The U.S. is ever ready to go to War. (Mars in the 9th house) but gets bogged down because of ill planned or deceptive ideology.....

She doesn't understand the meaning of the first house in mundane astrology. It's the state of the nation and the people as a whole. She's looking through the 10th and 11th houses

Scorpio in the 2nd house indicates money through oil, war and defence contracts.

In the 18th Century?

Capricorn on the 4th points to a barren home, working mothers, business at home, children?s emotional needs completely ignored and most family issues treated like business.

In the 18th Century?

Where the U.S. chart shines is in the 9th house and 10th house of fame. Cancer and Leo on the 10th house indicates America?s dual role. The nurturini!. mothering saviour and the glamourous Hollywood entertainment and showbiz image.

That's a misguided effort. She's trying to read a mundane chart as an individual natal chart, and it doesn't work, not to mention the transits of the outer planets Jupiter through Pluto don't fit the houses.

Hi Mark

Can you give the title and author of the article?

Thanks
Deb

Hello Deb,

Sorry I missed your post. Yes I suppose it was sloppy not to attribute the links first.

The first hyperlink I gave was to an article by an astrologer called Stefan Stenudd.

The second article involving the large quote is by an astrologer called Hassan Jaffer, who is based in in New York, Ontario, Canada. The article has no proper heading other than ''The United States of America''.

I got his article by googling and can't seem to locate it through the main website. Its maybe a old page that is no longer being used.

I appreciate its an exceptionally long quote. Its also not the most impressive piece of writing on the web. Do you want it deleted?

The other link I provided gives a far more cogent argument for using a Libra rising chart so the second site could be deleted without serious loss to anyone here.

Regards

Mark

Hi Mark

Thanks for that. I've inserted the info next to the extract. I think it will be OK to leave it - at least until the link can be located

Best wishes
Deb

MarkC wrote:However, lets play devil's advocate here..... Scorpio rising advocates could say the above could be explained by the Sun-Jupiter conjunction on the July 4th chart. The dark side needs explanation too doesn't it?

I take great offense to the constant "Scorpio is evil" concept that I see all over the internet. I'm a Scorpio and I'm quite aware, very passionate, highly motivated, extremely resourceful and love to investigate things (especially with Pluto in the 10th).

For the negative side of Scorpio, the Ascendant would have to be heavily afflicted and the rulers Mars and Pluto very badly placed in houses, signs and aspects, otherwise it just doesn't wash.

Besides, if we follow that line of reasoning, the the majority of countries as well as native American tribes, African tribes and kingdoms and most European countries, including the UK and even the Papacy would have to have a Scorpio Ascendant to explain "slavery and the brutal oppression of others."

Slavery is a non-issue. As a black slave, your choice was a white master in the US, or an Ashanti, Maasi, Yoruba or some other master in Africa, but the bottom line is you and your progeny were going to live and die as slaves no matter what. The conditions in the US were far better, and slavery ended in the US long before it ended in Africa.

And there was no genocide of native Americans. If the Shawnee hadn't been such murdering, raping and pillaging bastards, the Chinook, Ottawa, Chippewa and other tribes would not have gladly volunteered to help the US destroy the Shawnee at the Battle of Fallen Timbers. Remember, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so native Americans were right there every single step of the way helping the White Man "oppress" other native Americans. You'll notice that west of the Mississippi, many native Americans live on reservations that conform to their ancestral lands. That isn't by accident, that's by design as it was their reward for helping the US defeat and destroy other native American tribes. The politically correct image of native Americans living in harmony and communing with the Earth and singing Kumbaya is nonsense. Some tribes were highly developed and peaceful, others were war like savages.

Still, I'm not sure there's any real value to a government chart. The Articles of Confederation would be limited to just that, the Articles of Confederation, and progressing the chart should show its death being superseded by the Constitution, so at least there should be an accurate birth time for the Constitution Chart. Even so, the only thing that could be seen is the proposal and passage of amendments, except for the one that didn't (and I'd be willing to bet it was an applying aspect and one of the planets changed signs or houses before perfection). You'd also see landmark court cases involving the Constitution and its amendments, not every single one, just those that set a precedent.

There are many things that affect the country, but not necessarily the government, which is why a natal chart is needed. You need to be able to see changes in the 9th with respect to religious views and philosophies, in the 8th regarding sexual attitudes, in the 2nd regarding personal wealth and values, the 3rd for communication like the telegraph, telephone, railroads, canals, waterways, highways (although they were initially federally funded), air travel, radio, television and the internet, the 5th for sports, entertainment and leisure activities and so on.

Advocates of the Sibly chart as the sole 'USA chart' need to find an explanation for these historical developments and cultural characteristics.
This is not to suggest such indicators are not there. However, I think part of the reason for the increasing interest in the Scorpio rising chart is that the Sibly chart is often presented in such an overwhelmingly positive way. Little time is spent exploring the darker dimension of American history or society.

Any Sagittarius rising chart through 1792 will have Pluto in the 2nd House ruling the Scorpio 12th House representing the slavery as an institution and confinement on reservations.

The history of the US is nothing out of the ordinary and focusing on trivial matters is disingenuous. If in the 1700s the colonies/US was the only country on the planet practicing slavery, or the only country oppressing others, then I can see making a case for it, otherwise, it's just like a bowl movement, incidental to existence and of no consequence.

Lots of information here... and quite an impressive amount of charts.
Here's one more .. :-) - which ought to be taken into account.

Over the years I have learnt that it's actually the constitutions that "constitute" a state - although, I admit, this may sound not very "organic", and I felt a certain reluctance until I finally "surrendered"..
Quite a lot of discussions have been going on here in Germany as to the "right" chart of the Federal Republic. Surprisingly - finally convinced by the clear evidence - not the moment of the proclamation of the constitution (May 23, 1949 15:00 GMT) created the state-chart, but its taking effect the following midnight (May 24, = May 23rd, 22:00 GMT).
The same applies to the foundation of the German Reich which came into being NOT on January 18th, 1871, Versailles, the day of the proclamation - but on January 1, 1871 -on that day the Reich had already come into being.

It was decided that the US chart was to be effective as soon as at least nine of the 13 states would have agreed. This was the case when New Hampshire said yes.
One may or even should take the chart of that day:

June 21st 1788, Midnight, probably Philadelphia.

Interestingly this was the day of the summer solstice. SU conj IC on the first degree of Cancer, and the AC on the first degree of Aries.
Presently Pluto is challenging Sun, AC,DC,MC and IC simultaneously - which corresponds to a lot of procedures going on in the USA.
A lot can be found in this chart - the Civil War, the Depression etc...
To give a motre recent example:
A few weeks before "9-11" there was an eclipse on the first degree of Cancer, hitting both the sun and the IC.
So this chart surely deserves some attention..
Ll

Lunlumo wrote:Over the years I have learnt that it's actually the constitutions that "constitute" a state - although, I admit, this may sound not very "organic", and I felt a certain reluctance until I finally "surrendered".

Yes, sometimes that's how it works. I think people put too much emphasis on the "signing" of a document and not its moment of execution or implementation.

Lunlumo wrote:It was decided that the US chart was to be effective as soon as at least nine of the 13 states would have agreed. This was the case when New Hampshire said yes.
One may or even should take the chart of that day:

June 21st 1788, Midnight, probably Philadelphia.

That clause was contradictory and violated the Articles of Confederation.

When the convention was held at Philadelphia in 1787 it was under strict instructions from the Continental Congress only to prepare a list of amendments to the Articles of Confederation, and nothing more. The delegates had exceeded their instructions and were acting illegally (under international law they were executing a coup d'etat).

The ratification procedure itself was illegal. The Articles of Confederation required that any change in the powers of the government had to have the unanimous approval of all thirteen states as represented in the Continental Congress. The "founding fathers" knew that a unanimous vote was impossible and tried to force the hand by claiming 9 states justified ratification and acceptance.

The Congress was completely ignored and the Articles of Confederation were violated when the proposed Constitution was sent directly to the states immediately and without any debate or discussion in the Congress.

The US Supreme Court had this to say in Owings v Speed (1820):

"Both Governments could not be understood to exist at the same time. The new Government did not commence until the old Government expired. It is apparent that the Government did not commence on the Constitution being ratified by the ninth State; for these ratifications were to be reported to Congress, whose continuing existence was recognized by the Convention, and who were requested to continue to exercise their powers for the purpose of bringing the new Government into operation. In fact, Congress did continue to act as a Government until it dissolved on the 1st of November, by the successive disappearance of its Members. It existed potentially until the 2d of March, the day preceding that on which the Members of the new Congress were directed to assemble." [emphasis mine]

If the Articles of Confederation Chart has the correct birth data, then it should quite clearly show the death of the Articles, which would be when it was superseded by the Constitution, whether in spirit or actuality.

Hi Yossarian,

I take great offense to the constant "Scorpio is evil" concept that I see all over the internet. I'm a Scorpio and I'm quite aware, very passionate, highly motivated, extremely resourceful and love to investigate things (especially with Pluto in the 10th).

For the negative side of Scorpio, the Ascendant would have to be heavily afflicted and the rulers Mars and Pluto very badly placed in houses, signs and aspects, otherwise it just doesn't wash.

Besides, if we follow that line of reasoning, the the majority of countries as well as native American tribes, African tribes and kingdoms and most European countries, including the UK and even the Papacy would have to have a Scorpio Ascendant to explain "slavery and the brutal oppression of others."

I think your having an argument with someone else here. I don't recognise my comments as the anti-scorpio prejudice you seem to be suggesting it is. My point wasn't that you need a Scorpio influenced chart for darkness or evil! My point was rather that all the American astrologers I have read to date (apart from Michael O'Reilly) seem to focus exclusively on the positive side of American history. The term 'Pollyana astrology' comes to mind. Thats not an argument for or against any particular chart of the USA. I'm also not seeking to trash the USA or Americans either. Rather I was making a point about the delineation of the USA horoscope in general terms. Of course maybe that very tendency is just a reflection of the Sagittarian nature of American character!

By the way I have a Scorpio moon so I know what you mean about 'Scorpiophobia'.

However, the more you protest the more you will be presented as a bitter and twisted Scorpio malcontent. Its a no win scenario I fear.

Lilly had delicious fun at the expense of John Gadbury his former pupil after the two fell out. Lilly launched a satirical attack on Scorpios as this was Gadbury's rising sign.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gadbury.html

Mark

Yossarian wrote:
If the Articles of Confederation Chart has the correct birth data, then it should quite clearly show the death of the Articles, which would be when it was superseded by the Constitution, whether in spirit or actuality.

Hi Yossarian,
much more complicated than I would have imagined.
But although this act seems to have ben some sort of violation - isn't it true that it was finally accepted - possibly not "de iure" but "de facto" - I mean by way of the normative power of fact itself.
Lunlumo

hi mark

thanks for the Libra links

The 1st link's rectification for Libra was quite shocking. The writer seemingly has little understanding of the nature of the planets and the kind of transits you would expect in relation to the gravity of the event.

For example: 9/11
Mars conjunct IC and opp MC and square asc
Transit mercury conjunct Saturn - 1st house
Transit Saturn trine 1st house Saturn
Transit Uranus 5th trine mars 9th
Transit Jupiter conjunct sun 10th

Does this describe the event - I think not!

The 2nd link was more interesting as it tried to get into the 'psychology' of the nation, which I think is the primary task of National Inception Charts.

So Libra rising - 'it's nice to be nice'. This reminds me of the American Clich? of 'have a nice day'. The best description of Libra rising I have encountered is the 'need to create space between people', does this describe the typical American way of arriving in situations. I think not. Then you have the ?IRON HAND IN THE VELVET GLOVE?.

Moon in Aquarius (like Princess Diana) is the cool and aloof side of America best portrayed by the supermodels with an attitude! No wonder Princess Diana, who was a Cancer with Moon in Aquarius liked the U.S. and instantly became popular here.The three astronauts who first landed on the Moon were all Cancers (Jupiter in Cancer in the 9th) !

Here is a poor understanding of the Aquarian Moon. Again an old clich?,
Spot the Aquarian moon in the crowd ' big smile on their face every time someone says hello'. Sounds like your archetypal American. The Moon here is detached but not particularly cold. (Saturn?s link to Aquarius has been evolved)

Also you have here the disingenuous ignoring of Diana?s Sag rising as well!

So I find the astrology amateur here and I skipped over the personality correlations, such as Bill Gates does well because he has Mercury in Libra. Poor!

So neither of these articles appear to have argued their corner effectively.

Having said all this the possibility that the ?signing? was wrapped up late morning can't be dismissed lightly.
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MOTORCYCLE TIRES