Andrew wrote: Wilson reports the tradition as conveyed by Ptolemy and Placido. Ptolemy writes in his Tetrabiblos:

They also assigned to each of the sects the two destructive stars, not however in this instance on the principle of similar natures, but of just the opposite; for when stars of the same kind are joined with those of the good temperament their beneficial influence is increased, but if dissimilar stars are associated with the destructive ones the greatest part of their injurious power is broken. Thus they assigned Saturn, which is cold, to the warmth of the day, and Mars, which is dry, to the moisture of the night, for in this way each of them attains good proportion through admixture and becomes a proper member of its sect, which provides moderation.

When the Sun rises in the sign of his exaltation both these injurious bodies have their signs in the light of day, except Aries. They have had their "assignment" for several hundred years now and I wouldn't really say the war god is showing any sign of being tamed. He is letting us come nearer, even to sit on him to explore but I see even the children in news stories unleashing his rage against each other, young men that would rather kill that learn to live productively and peacefully. Again, practical application doesn't seem to support this.

My point still stands that Venus is exalted where she must adjust her view from her Libra throne. If she wants to relate she must be willing to give up her view in order to keep the scales in balance and cool Mars down. Sometimes the law must be sacrificed especially when Saturn has been given too much control there. She opens her door and welcomes him in and he doesn't want to leave, overstaying his welcome. He won't even help with the dishes or clean up after himself. He always want's to be the boss.

Just kidding, but not really. My point is that this is a man made system and model. Men change, the elements don't. Women are still working at bringing the balance within the Libra realm but it isn't by keeping Saturn as an exalted guest. He needs to exert some of his energy into the Aries side for a change.

I have the benefit of having Saturn's diurnal sign on the 7th with Saturn in Scorpio sextile exalted Mars in Capricorn. I've also had the benefit of having two long term marriages to compare how Saturn behaves there. The first was an Aquarian that I never saw act in an altruistic manner in 28 years even with Jupiter and Venus, the two benefics, there. He hated being around people unless it was only two, our our family. We had 6 sons together so that was a little bit of a crowd but that was the only crowd he wanted to tolerate. Saturn in Virgo seemed to be his guiding star rather than Uranus or Saturn acting in an Aquarian manner. My man of the last 10 years is so much more Aquarian even with his lights in Aries, Mars and Saturn both in their fall. He is a beautiful example of a human being willing to tame both Mars and Saturn, work on an equal basis with his mate to make the relationship work. Both men have Saturn in the 7th with Mars in fall.

Mithra, I too have done hundreds of charts and still make an occasional error. I don't think the learning ever ends but if trying to apply someone's ideas causes me confusion and I have to "make" it fit "somehow", perhaps that is a red flag that it needs looked at from an objective perspective rather than accepting it as gospel that you must conform to and make fit.

Here is a good example from another ancient text many attempt to conform to. In the Christian New Testament there are many scriptures speaking to the "fact" that a woman most submit to her husband, cover her head because he is her head and remain quiet in the public assembly, saving her questions or comments until she gets home. Now, in the original language of the foundational religion, Hebrew and Judiasm, there is only one word for husband. It is Baal and means slave owner, master and husband. This is the false god the people were told to abstain from worshiping and obeying. So, a modern, of that time took an ancient teaching and completely turned it around. Was that good for our evolutionary growth? If one didn't study the the original languages and research texts a couple thousand years older, this simple word would remain hidden. Jesus was a Jew, after all and so was Paul, the little one, that made all these bold statements, if we are to trust the authorship.

Yes, I will read more of the texts than I have so far. But I will still use my own judgment and observations. I have a great deal of respect for Saturn in Aries and Mars in Libra under certain circumstances.

Thanks to all of you. This has helped to clarify some things for me.

AquarianEssence wrote: You seem to be labeling me as a modern astrologer but I really don't wear labels well, modern or otherwise.

No, sorry that was not my intent. I simply tried to say that as far as I know, Air is considered an intellectual element only in contemporary astrology.

In the new Sahl/Masha?allah translation by Ben Dykes Dykes mentions in the Introduction also these qualities of the elements. He writes:

The elemental qualities of hot and cold are strong/active and weak/passive respectively, and indicate lightness and heaviness respectively. But the dry and wet qualities are quick and slow, respectively.

That means that
- Fire is a strong, active and quick element;
- Earth is a weak, passive but still a quick element, like quicksand;
- Air is a strong, active but slow element; and
- Water is a weak, passive and slow element.

What is interesting in that scheme is that it makes Air a slow element and Earth quick, contrary to what we might possibly think.

Thank you for the clarification, Papretis. Here is one more contradiction, it seems. You know, it will be quite difficult to ever get proper respect for this craft until there can be more agreement between the various sects that are being followed or supported. A house divided against itself has a hard time standing. What would happen if a house is divided against itself? Would it implode?

I don't think any scientific minded person could ever trust us enough to spend time considering the validity of astrology if any of our principles or teachings is contrary to known and proven science. I, just as an observer of the various storms, hurricanes active right now would have a hard time buying that air is slow. From one religious view, the spirit, which is air, hovered over the waters and the waters were drawn to one place. This would hint at slow, with the hovering. But if the definintion of the word spirit is looked at closely, it is a violent exalation. Actually there are two different spirits, on rational, the other instinctive. Ruach, the violent, rational exhalation is the spirit of God, and is the life breath. When an air system slows it feeds on warmth and builds internal speed, thus turning a tropical depression into a storm, then a hurricane. This is the nature of air, in part.

AquarianEssence wrote: Here is one more contradiction, it seems. You know, it will be quite difficult to ever get proper respect for this craft until there can be more agreement between the various sects that are being followed or supported. A house divided against itself has a hard time standing. What would happen if a house is divided against itself? Would it implode? .

Hi Connie,

Exactly . There are various opinions about this, but I personally think that it should be possible to find at least a few common truths in astrology by observation and open-minded study. Astrology cannot be just divination, existing only in astrologer?s head. I?ve done enough statistical study to know that the claim ?there is zero statistical evidence for astrology? is simply untrue. The statistical effect may not be very big, but it is there, giving little hints about its existence here and there.

I have a netsite where I?ve published a few studies, and today we have put there a new study that completes the two previous studies to a trilogy. They are about zodiacs and house systems, and there is evidence of some systems giving constantly stronger statistical results than others. If astrology didn't work statistically at all, that would not be possible.

http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/index.html

Best, Sari

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I use Regio consistently for horary and usually use Placidus for natal but have been wondering this same thing. I have also wondered if I might get more consistently reliable results when using Regio for location of missing objects or move questions and in using Placidus for time questions.