My friend asked me this question. She is 31. No relationship at present. No babies yet either. A big question for her I think. 25th July 2008, 02.28 am, Edinburgh Scotland 55N57 03W13 Regiomontanus. ASC 1.41 Cancer. She is Moon in Aries 11th house. Fertile which house? I make it 5th house ruler. But Mercury in fertile sign Moon square Mercury applying 3.46 deg a YES but with hardship. Mercury L5 Fertile sign but combust is a strong NO. Mars a malefic aspecting by conjuction 5th cusp 3deg another NO. So I think she is not fertile. The second part of the question is Is it destined for me to have a child? I used Saturn L9th as destiny and as Saturn is not aspected by the Moon or for that matter any other planet another NO. So my judgement is then that my friend is infertile and it is not destined for her either to have a child. At his moment I have not told her the answer yet. Does anyone see any other hope for her as the Moon being in the 11th of hopes and wishes I think she might hate the answer.

Stan

PS I always seem to bring bad news to my friends

Hi stanstar,

I don't envy your situation. It might be worth you calling the "considerations before judgement" into play here. The major point I can see is that very early Asc, indicating it's too early to say. Tell her the chart is unreadable. If the answer is as negative as you seem to think, telling her is not going to help her!!

If, for example, she has had medical treatment and wondered if it had affected her fertility, then ok, she would probably be prepared to hear a negative answer. However, if she is otherwise healthy and still hopes to have children someday, and is not prepared for a negative answer - why spoil things for her?

I think the real question here is "(When) Will I form a relationship which could lead to children?" Unless she's planning on going to the sperm bank or having a one night stand!

Perhaps advise your friend to think more carefully about what she is asking about - does she really want the *answer to the question*? Or does she just want *reassurance* that things will work out the way she wants? And for you, you need to work out if you could live with knowing you told her she was infertile and not ever going to have children. Somehow I doubt you would still be friends after that!!

Based on the early Asc. I would say chuck this chart away and steer well clear of similar questions posed by friends, unless you don't want them to be your friends anymore

Best wishes,
Keren

Hello Stan,

Horary is a funny thing. Although it allows us to peer objectively into the lives and situations we would not otherwise understand, it also gives us an opportunity to think about how answering the question may or may not be helpful to the person asking. I know that for myself, professionally, I had to decide exactly what kind of questions I would take or not take, based upon whether or not I felt judging an answer would be helpful or not.

For example: Someone once wanted to ask me if they would ever be happy? How would that help them if I read the chart and it looked negative? The same thing with someone asking me about ever being wealthy. So, one of the things I end up suggesting to a person who asks these kinds of Horary is to ask with a given time frame. That is fair I feel. For example: Does it look like I will have a rush of fortune in the next year?, or feel happier beginning next year?, or have a baby within the next year, or is the next 6 months a good fertility time for me? This leaves room for hope and change if the Horary for the time period is negative. I think this is the best for being helpful in our practice, whether professional or with friends.

That being said, this is still an interesting chart and question. And one more suggestion. I would add in your story if she has been pregnant before, had abortions, any medical procedures or had any other problems with pregnancy (such as miscarriages), has she tried before etc. The more information a Horary artist has (and especially on a presentation to a Horary forum) to make sense of what the chart is showing the better we can translate the planets into something palpable.

Onto the Horary itself:

Although the Horary has its problems, I don?t think the situation is quite as bad as you think, there appears to be hope here.

Karen below mentions the early ascendant, but I think that this is more descriptive than anything else. We would almost expect something like this as it is obvious a change has just recently taken place inside of her to give her motivation to ask the question. The Ascendant has just moved from Barren Gemini to a most fertile Cancer, both Cancer and the Moon relate to babies, so this Ascendant clearly fits the situation at hand. The Ruler of the 5th is also in Cancer so this adds to the sense of fertility even though the Moon is not in a fertile sign we have 2 evidences of fertility here: The Asc & 5th ruler. One of the strongest evidences of an upcoming pregnancy is the ruler of the 1st and 5th coming together. In this chart the Moon is applying to the 5th ruler unimpeded. This is great news! Interestingly, shortly after contacting Mercury the Moon will move into Taurus (symbolically), so what does this mean. I would see this as a possibility of her feeling exalted, feeling great, after getting pregnant. So this upcoming change does look quite good.

So what are the problems here? The Mars conj. The 5th cusp is one of them (as you mention). Mars also rules the 6th, which relates to surgery?s, medical difficulties, general obstacles, etc. So this appears to be problematic. In some cases this can produce miscarriages, or other medical issues. That sort of a thing, but please don?t say this to your friend. Either way especially because Mars is in a Barren sign this looks like a problem. Mercury Lord 5 is under Sun Beams. It is not combust. Although within the assigned amount of degrees away from the Sun to make a planet combust when a planet has the shield of another sign between itself and the Sun we drop its negative influence to that of Sunbeams, which is a lesser problem.

There is another interesting thing going on here. The antiscia of Saturn is almost exactly conj. The Moon. Saturn rules the 7th. Antiscia often has the feel of the hidden. This could represent an underlying problem towards pregnancy. But if there are no known medical problems this may very well be saying that this chart is more of a relationship concern than a fertility one. Note how the Moon has this terrible reception to Saturn, with the Moon in Aries it is in the fall of Saturn. I see this as meaning that although she wants a man in her life to give her a baby she may be turned off to the idea of a relationship, and this may be the real problem that she is going through. Note how the Moon is in the exaltation of the Sun?showing she wants a man, but again how she may be turned off perhaps by a relationship.

If this were a relationship chart we would add Venus as her as a woman and the Sun as a man in her life. I have personally discovered that in pregnancy Horary?s it is often important to look at what is happening with Venus. Note how the Moon and Venus both have enormous reception to the Sun. ?Her wanting a man for the purpose of having a child?, all the while Venus and Moon hate Saturn (Venus in Detriment of Saturn) showing being turned off to relationship involvement.

I would expect to see something similar for a woman asking for a sex partner without any relationship involvement, whereby her significators would probably show a strong interest in the Sun with a negative connection to Lord 7.

In the end the evidence appears to be that she is indeed fertile (with the only exception to that being if this Saturn on her Moon represents a medical problem, but I would want that checked out by a doctor before judging that from the Horary). Depending upon her situation we would judge timing from the Moon?s application to Mercury. But it looks like the real issue is whether or not she is ready or willing to become involved in a relationship that would lead to a pregnancy. Depending upon how close a friend she is to you, that might be an interesting point for discussion with her.

My suggestion is to tell her that she is most likely fertile and that there is hope for a child, but that her feelings toward's a relationship appear to be the biggest obstacle right now. And if she is that concerned she should see her doctor to determine if there is any medical problems with her fertility process.

And as Karen mentioned of course a sperm bank is always an option if the desire is that immediate and strong to get pregnant. But I would be interested to hear about how interested or resistant she has been to relationships and what that would entail in her life.

Lastly, I would Not look to the 9th house for questions on Destiny. I would stick to the main points in the Horary and the main houses involved and such from those things. For example: If someone asks if they are destined to be an accountant? And we find Lord 1 is Mercury in Virgo at the Mc, we would judge yes based upon the clear symbolism of Lord 1, rather than looking to the ruler of the 9th. But again I do suggest changing destiny questions into timed questions, etc.

It?s an interesting chart. Certainly please report back to us as things develop or do not develop.

Best,

Yasha Yothi

Yasha thank you for a most interesting and wise reply here!
I indeed have learned a lot from you here! It was worthwhile just posting the question in order to receive your thoughts and wisdom. The antiscions have never to be ignored whilst looking at a chart. The Moon conj. Saturn's antiscion seems to be the key to unlock the hidden door. The door of which is so relevant to the querant.

Thank you Yasha

Stan

Hello Stan,

You are most welcome. I was happy to work through the situation with you, as it raised some interesting points for discussion. I am glad you got a lot out of it. Interestingly, as we see in this case here, often times in the midst of answering the main question in a Horary we become privy to the possibility of an underlying issue that can be brought to the attention of the querent.

I actually discuss this in an article I had published in The Mountain Astrologer. The name of the article is called Humanistic Horary. It is out in the current Aug/Sep issue of the magazine. If you have access to it I think you will find it very interesting. I offer insight on how to notice when a chart is edging us towards something other than what the client has told us. It takes Horary down a deeper journey than normal. Sometimes this can be very very helpful to the querent.

I notice that you live in Edinburgh. I was there a few years back and totally enjoyed the trip. What a lovely city!

Best,

Yasha

in further lights on nakshatra chiontamani- by CR Bhat on page 167 the hint is given as under-

if the subord of the 5th cusp ( in female ) or 11th cusp ( in male ) be the significator ( in star of occupant or owner ) of 1, 4, or 10 ( being 12th from 2, 5, and 11 ) or connected with 1, 4, 10 , also connected with barren signs ( aries, gemini, leo , virgo , or capricorn ), saturn (delaying ), Rahu - dragon's head ( restricting ) and dragon's tail ( abortive ) child birth is not promised.

jupiter is natural significator of child birth. in females Moon is fertility and Mars is menstruation. in males Venus is fertility and Sun is vitality. all these along with 5th and 11th should be examined.

regards
hs nagi/ india 0091 94177 17910

hi

i made chart using kpaynamsa, for date 25-7-2008 , 02, 28 am , for edinburgh co ordinates.

as per time chart, 5th cusp sub lord is saturn. saturn is lord of 8-9-10 cusp and is placed in 4th .
saturn is in leo - a barren sign.
saturn is in constellation of ketu- dragon's tail.. another abortive planet in 3.
but dragon tail is in cancer, a fruitful sign. and is an agent of moon. moon is in 11, moon is lord of 2 another favourable house. moon is in constellation of mercury which is in rapt conjunction with 2nd cusp.

so through constellation 5th cusp sub lord signify strongly 11 and 2.

so child birth is assured, but with initial difficulties.

Hi HS Nagi, Thank you for your comments. I wish I could follow what you are saying here! The terms you use are unfamiliar with me. Can you explain the following: nakshatra chiontamani, subord, or sublord, kpaynamsa, constellation of ketu, all presumably Vedic terms?

Stan

hi stan,

nakshatra chintamani- is a name of book, it is hindi word but book is in english.

sub lord means, 1/9 part of the star. we have 12 cusps in a horoscope. each cusp falls at particular degree-minute and second in a zodiac. suppose any cusp falls at 22-16-20 in scorpio. this area is controled by mars sign- mercury star and moon sub. this moon is a sub lord of this house.

constellation of ketu means constelation of dragon's tail we have three constellations of dragon tail, 1st is ashwini in aries 0 degree to 13- 20 degree, 2nd is in leo in same position , 3rd is in saggitarious in same area,

yes this terminology is used in vedic. but kp is different from vedic. its predictive part is diffetrent. i made many accurate predictions in advance for elections, match, marriage, married kife, speculation, love affairs, many more.

regards
hs nagi

Help please! :-T

Stan

what do you want?

hs can you participate in explaining what all that you have said so we can understand it better?

Stan