Hello all

My question is regarding who thinks of who when significators are in houses.

Example: If the quesited's significator is in the querent's 5th house is the quesited seeing the querent as a romantic interest or, is the querent seeing the quesited as a romantic interest?

I would be and appreciate it if anyone could clear that up for me.

MarG

My question is regarding who thinks of who when significators are in houses.

Example: If the quesited's significator is in the querent's 5th house is the quesited seeing the querent as a romantic interest or, is the querent seeing the quesited as a romantic interest?

I would be and appreciate it if anyone could clear that up for me.

Hi Marg,

Always remember in the radical chart we are looking at things primarily from the querents perspective. It is their 5th house after all not that of the quesited. To see what house the planet falls in the quesited's chart we need to turn the chart. Assuming the quesited =House 7=house 1 of the 'turned chart' the radical 5th house would approximate to the 11th house of the quesited's turned chart.

One indication of interest which would show up in the radical chart would be if Lord 7 is in the first house. This would indicate strong interest from the quesited towards the querent. If on the other hand, Lord 1 was in the 7th house house it indicates more interest from the querent towards the quesited.

So in the chart example you gave the querent could very well have romantic feelings to the quesited. Still it always depends on context. For example if a woman badly wants children she may see the potential partner in more basic terms! Moreover, as the house of fun the 5th house does not necessarily indicate a strong bond. That is why I always look to Lord 7 as the main significator of an enduring relationship.

If you are using the 5th house to indicate the potential partner I would not conclude any romantic interest from the quesited unless the significator planet falls in the radical first. After all the radical 5th house would only be the turned first house of the quesited in this instance. Using this approach the turned 5th house of the quesited is the 9th house ( radical) and their 7th house is the 11th house (radical).

Other factors need to be considered beyond house placement to assist in such judgements such as the dignities , aspects and any receptions between the planets concerned. For example a mutual reception between the two significator planets in a good aspect is an excellent indicator of both people coming together with a similar outlook. We need to take the chart as a whole and not just focus on one area exclusively to reach a judgement on such issues.

Hope some of this helps.

Mark

Hi MarkC

Thanks so much for your response, it helps a lot

The reason I asked is that I've seen posts on another forum saying it as the quesited's sig in the querent's 5th house meant that the quesited had romantic interests in the querent and I didn't think that looked right. As you said, the radical 5th is the quesited's 11th house of friendship, etc., when turning the chart for the quesited.

I follow traditional so I never use the 5th for a person My example was just regarding who saw who as a romantic interest.

If I follow what you said, then it would be correct to say...that if the querent's significator is in the 5th house of the quesited (turned 11th) that the quesited would have a romantic interest in the querent!?

MR, aspects and dignities would be considered including the overall chart, regarding the question.


MarG

If I follow what you said, then it would be correct to say...that if the querent's significator is in the 5th house of the quesited (turned 11th) that the quesited would have a romantic interest in the querent!?

Hi Marg,

Yes if the querants significator planet ( Lord 1) is in the turned 5th house of the quesited it could indicate such a romantic interest by the quesited towards the querent. I say 'could' with the caveat of the other factors I mentioned in mind which will either stengthen or substantially weaken such testimonies in the chart. On the other hand the quesited's significator planet ( Lord 7) in the radical 5th house chart tells us more about the possible feelings of the querent rather than the quesited.

Quite often planets in the radical houses just indicate what the querent wants rather than what will happen. For example its common to see Lord 1 in the 10th house in job horaries. This often just reflects the person really wants the job unless there is other supporting testimony in the chart. For things to happen you need applying aspects. For things to work out in an ideal way or on a long term basis you hope to see both planets in reception and having reasonable essential dignity. Antiscion links between the two planets can be critical too failing other things.

Mark

Hi MarkC

Thank you again for your very detailed explanation. You have broadened my understanding tremendously and I truly appreciate it.


MarG

Hi MarG and MarkC,

Sorry to upset the apple cart but I have found in my charts that the placement of L1 or L7 (or other significators such as Venus or Sun) in the 5th indicates a sexual or romantic component. The 5th seems to be both the querent's house of romance and the quesited's - which makes sense given the querent is asking and so the 5th is their romance. (The romance not the person they are having it with.)

Often L1 and L7 in the 5th but with no mutual reception indicates that they are both interested in a fling but no real relationship. "I like you and you like me because we both want someone, but not particularly each other, let's have some fun."

I have not seen that the 11th gives the same promise of sexual relations. It does seem to be a much more platonic house - again this makes sense as the chart is cast from the querent's perspective and hence it is their house of friendship as it were. A definite clue that the romantic component is lacking.

I can have a trawl and probably post examples if anyone's interested.

Keren

Sorry to upset the apple cart but I have found in my charts that the placement of L1 or L7 (or other significators such as Venus or Sun) in the 5th indicates a sexual or romantic component. The 5th seems to be both the querent's house of romance and the quesited's - which makes sense given the querent is asking and so the 5th is their romance. (The romance not the person they are having it with.)

Lord 1 in the 5th? I agree for the querent that this might indicate romantic interest. Although its a weak indicator on its own. This could be nothing more than a fanciful desire by the querent without more support in the chart. It could just be an indicator their mind is focused on the question..romance! Lord 7 in the 5th maybe too? Ok I have to respect your experience there. Still without aspects, MR, or at least some antiscia its not much to go on is it?. However, if you have examples to show that traditional assumption is wrong please post them up. I would be very interested in taking a look. I know you have done a load of horaries at fairs so imagine you get this kind of question an awful lot!

Often L1 and L7 in the 5th but with no mutual reception indicates that they are both interested in a fling but no real relationship

I have not come across that scenario but it sounds very plausible. As I indicated the 5th house isn't really a place to look for anything long term in regards relationships anyway.

Mark

I would agree with KH about the romantic/sexual component of the 5th being used for both querent and quesited, since it in a question of 'romance' as opposed to the person (7th). Turning the chart and using the 11th (5th of the 7th) doesn't work as well.

For example a mutual reception between the two significator planets in a good aspect is an excellent indicator of both people coming together with a similar outlook.

Perhaps. I'll post an example here.

"Does he love me?"
4 September 2006
Tucson, AZ
15:05 pm

Querent: Saturn 23 Can 49 in 7th house.
Quesited: Moon 23 Tau 47 in 5th house.
Venus (Lord 5): 27 Can 51 in 7th house.

The obvious answer is 'yes', he loved her. But the Moon in the 5th, and the 5th ruler in the 7th (in mutual reception) in applying aspect (after perfection of Saturn sext. Moon) seems to me that the quesited didn't take it quite as seriously as the querent: the querent was in the house of relationships; the quesited was in the house of 'fun', and the lord of 'fun' was in the quesited's house.

This is one of my rare 'closed' horaries. It turned out exactly this way: that the querent was far more serious about the quesited (Saturn in Lord 7's sign) than vice-versa. Note there was no 11th house activity in this chart, at all.

GH

I would agree with KH about the romantic/sexual component of the 5th being used for both querent and quesited, since it in a question of 'romance' as opposed to the person (7th). Turning the chart and using the 11th (5th of the 7th) doesn't work as well.

Ok I have reflected on this and gone back to Lilly in CA to see how he handled such questions. I will make the following points:

1 From my reading of Lilly he never seems to rely on just a planet in a house to reach a judgement. He always seemed to emphasize applications between the key significators and/or the Moon. This discussion about planets in houses therefore seems somewhat artificial in isolation. That point applies to any question not just 5th house matters.

You do find modern astrologers like Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson suggesting this is enough (in fact she draws conclusions on the whole chart just from the presence of any planet in the 5th). I do not follow this approach myself. However, Keren's point about natural signicators would seem more relevant. Again though I would not rely on this as definitive testimony of anything happening on its own without applying aspects involving the key significators and/or Moon.

2 One could conclude there is some romantic interest if the querent's significator is in the 5th (from the querent) Equally, we could conclude interest from the quesited if their significator is in the 5th. In that respect I accept my original post was incorrect ( I'm getting rusty!) However, I see no basis to conclude the quesited is interested in the querent if its the querent's significator in the 5th. To do that you would need applying aspects between the significators/Moon.

3 The 5th house is a rather difficult house to draw definitive conclusions about relationships. Especially as it can just mean an interest in sex for fun rather than any romantic feelings from either side. Some might say the two go hand in hand but I think there are lots of examples where it does not. Your chart example rather demonstrates this point.

4 I would agree with both you and Keren that the radical chart should always come first before we start spinning the chart like a whirling dervish! My initial post to Marg probably overcomplicated the issue. Still, I do think turned houses do have their uses.