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25 by margherita
Ficina wrote:Interesting article, Andrew, though I'm not sure that I agree with Crane's argument for starting at the winter solstice, as per Ptolemy, rather than the spring equinox.
Bezza follows Crane, or viceversa :)

In fact:
[edited by DH - see diagram on link below:]
http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.luna/luna3.gif
(from http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.luna/luna.html)

So New Moon to the First Quarter is increasing in moisture, I Quarter to Full Moon is increasing in warmth, and so on.

Moon works like outer planets as described in Tetrabiblos:
"The planets, when matutine, and from their first emerging until they arrive at their first station, are chiefly productive of moisture; from their first station until they rise at night, of heat; from their rising at night until their second station, of dryness; and from their second station until their occultation, they produce cold." I, 8

26 by Deb
This is the only thread that I managed to catch whilst I was at the Blast conference, and it was interesting to read about the views of Crane, Greenbaum and Hand (about Lilly and Ptolemy), whilst I was at the Blast with Crane, Greenbaum and Hand (talking about Lilly and Ptolemy) :)

Despite my general passion for Lilly?s work, I also agree that Ptolemy?s explanation of the Moon?s humours is more persuasive and internally consistent. Sasha gives a great explanation at the top of this page. Gjiada demonstrates with a beautiful diagram and a highly pertinent quote. Also remember that Ptolemy wrote that *most* of the Moon?s power is humidifying, so even when it is in the driest period of its cycle, this will only be relative to its own norm. It also heats moderately because it receives its light from the Sun. The planetary cycles into and out of the Sun are intrinsically linked to the symbolism of planetary growth and decay ? so just as the Moon?s light is maximum between its 1st and last quarter phases, so is its ability to reflect and express the warmth given to it by the Sun. It helps to keep in mind that the Moon is a transmitter of light and virtue.

27 by Mark
Hello Deb,

Sounds like you had a great time at the Blast conference. :D

Judging from her book Dorian Greenbaum seems to think Lilly's position is more logical from a practical astrological perpective. Has she changed her mind on that? If not I do find it quite amusing that she favours Lilly's approach here while you go for the hellenistic source. A nice demonstration of open minds.

Ps great diagram Gjiada!

29 by Andrew
For the declination is the real base of the Tropic astrology. Our Western astrology is based on the seasons, therefore we use the Tropic Zodiac. The seasons are caused by the declination of earth. Therefore we speak of Tropic astrology, because two of the four most important points are the solstice points, one on the Tropic of Cancer (0? Cancer the beginning of Summer) and one on the Tropic of Capricorn (0? Capricorn, the beginning of Winter), on both points the Sun stands still (Solstice: Sol = sun and Stice: stands still), to turn around and pursuing his way to the other side, on the way travelling via the equinoxes, the two other cardinal points 0? Aries (the beginning of Spring) and 0? Libra (the beginning of Autumn). Year after year the sun follows the same way: the super highway or the ecliptic.

Leigh Westin put it all together in her book:

* declination causes the seasons

o without declination no seasons
o without seasons no lifecycle
o without seasons no tropic Zodiak
o without Tropic Zodiak no Western astrology
o without declination no cardinal points
o without declination days equals nights
o without declination no solstitia
o without declination no antiscia
http://www.mandala.be/declination/why.htm

It occurs to me (given Greenbaum's seasonal references) that Ptolemy may have imported his model of the Moon Phases from a sidereal system whereas the medievals may have sought to have their model of Moon Phases mirror the cycle of the seasons, and thus the tropical zodiac. Just a thought.

30 by Ficina
Gijada, thank you for addressing my point and for posting the colourful diagram.

It now appears that neither system is entirely accurate. In fact it would perhaps make more sense to divide the circle into 45 degree segments. In that way, waning crescent to waxing crescent would be cold/moist (phlegmatic), then waxing crescent to waxing gibbous warm/moist (sanguine) and so on. Just another thought.

31 by Deb
Hi Andrew,

I had to remove one of your recent posts because it was breaking copyright. In general - its OK to reproduce from works out of copyright, but if they are recent publications then you need to adhere to the copyright notices in the book. Small quotes to illustrate a point you are making are usually OK according to a 'fair use' policy.

Also, just to be on the safe side, I replaced Gijada's diagram with a link. If text or diragrams are reproduced with permission, can members please say so at the time of posting?

Mark - Hope to come back to your question later when I have a little more time.

Deb

32 by Andrew
Yikes! I gave attribution, I thought it was okay. Also, I reproduced the material from the on-line Google preview pages, so didn't think there would be a problem.

Unfortunately, there are no out-of-copyright texts that go into the matter as thoroughly as Greenbaum does.

33 by Deb
Unfortunately, there are no out-of-copyright texts that go into the matter as thoroughly as Greenbaum does.
Agreed. Alas, this sort of thing is the reason why we need to actually buy books from time to time:) Still, it keeps the industry moving.

34 by Mark
Alas, this sort of thing is the reason why we need to actually buy books from time to time:) Still, it keeps the industry moving.
In that respect Dorian Greenbaum's book is an excellent investment as she pulls together so much material from the tradition. I am finding it one of the most useful books in my library just now.

35 by Andrew
Yes, well, I bought three copies of her book last year: one for myself, one for a friend, and one for my local library. So I think I've done my bit for the industry. ;-)

The material I originally posted included her rationale for using Lilly's phases rather than Ptolemy's. It was easier to copy it from one screen to another (instead of trying to hold the book open while I typed). For those who want to "preview" the material for themselves, this link may help (provided it's still "in play"):

http://books.google.com/books?id=r3i6Dv ... QkeXQqa3KA

But of course, I encourage anyone interested in this topic who doesn't yet own her book to ... buy it! It's well worth the investment.

36 by margherita
It now appears that neither system is entirely accurate. In fact it would perhaps make more sense to divide the circle into 45 degree segments. In that way, waning crescent to waxing crescent would be cold/moist (phlegmatic), then waxing crescent to waxing gibbous warm/moist (sanguine) and so on. Just another thought.
Hello, Ficina.
I agree with Deborah Houlding in one of his previous post.
Qualities depend on which planets we are talking about. A drier Moon in a chart because of her phase could not be as dry as a moist Saturn, at least I think so.
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