Teacher wrote:
Our school subscribes to a plagarism software program, but in order for me to use it, I need an electronic copy of the document in question to scan. At this point, I have only a hard copy of the student's essay--which means I'll either have to retype it myself, or ask him for an electronic copy..

I have an idea. Why not tell him as punishment for being late, in order to receive full credit, he has to type it. Then run your software.

RC

Deb wrote:

If she is his teacher and he her student, there is really nothing mundane about it. (imo) He would be the 3rd.
I'm relying on traditionalist teaching here as well as modern authors such as Ivy Jacobson. I believe John Frawley also teaches this.

I?m curious about this, because I?m not sure that there is a solid traditional reference to say that students are 3rd house. I don?t have time to check today, but off the top of my head I?d say probably not. This seems more like a modern association than a traditional one.

Hi Deb:

Glad to see you back!

Well I do use more modern techniques and I was assuming Frawley who so many of the younger students so love, was working from a traditionalist position when he wrote that. But I haven't read his book in a while and am certainly no expert on Frawely. Magpie's analysis actually sounds a bit like Frawley (in the like/love reception sense).

But even if there is not a firm consensus on who is the house for students here (& that may depend if this is high school or college - I don't think Teacher said but the chart suggest him either in university or about to enter) - you could still approach this question from the 3rd house in analyzing the output, the report itself could you not? You could use Lilly's approach to determining if the report is true (or not). in this case, genuine or not.

RC

you could still approach this question from the 3rd house in analyzing the output, the report itself could you not?

I agree. I have to confess that I haven't had time to look at the chart, but generally speaking, I think it makes a lot of sense to consider the 7th house for 'the suspect' whilst casting an eye to the 3rd house for indications relating to the document itself. If there are suspicions of lies or falsified documents then the relationship between the Moon and Mercury, and heavy afflictions to those two are very relevant too. A traditional approach would consider whether there are fixed signs on the angles (this indicates truth, whereas moveable signs suggest that the information is not reliable), whether there are favourable or unfavourable indications around the angles overall, the state (and especially the essential dignity) of the significators; and the relationship, essential state and aspects of the Moon and Mercury.

Hello, again.

It's quite gratifying to see such an interest in this topic.

The house cusps for the chart are mixed. The AC-DC axis is fixed. The MC-IC axis is mutable. I use regio houses. So what does this indicate? A mixture of truth and stuff that can't be pinned down?

Also, I do want to emphasize something. I have taken NO ACTION with respect to this issue. I have said nothing about my suspicions to the student. I read the essay he submitted and evaluated it as if it were his original work. And I will give it back to him on Monday and say nothing, unless I can find **concrete evidence** that he copied the paper--concrete evidence would be the written material that he copied, either in print or on the internet. I would never confront anyone on such an issue based solely on my suspicions, or on what was found in a horary chart. I'd get fired if I did that, and probably never be able to teach anywhere again.

I teach at an undergraduate college. And, as distasteful as it is to admit, students do plagarize. It definitely happens, though fortunately not often. In fact, on one occasion I overhead two students (not mine) discuss having gotten away with plagarism--they thought it was a big joke on the professor. Students who slack off and get behind are especially vulnerable to this sort of behavior--the stress of having to catch up on so much coursework gets to them, and then they just buy a paper off an internet service, or cut and paste something from different websites. For a student who's fallen behind, who's been prone to grammatical errors, and who's struggled with the control of tone in his writing to suddenly piece together a well-written, well-reasoned, grammatically perfect essay would arouse the suspicions of most teachers. Sure, students improve--sometimes they can improve dramatically in a short period of time. But usually the improvement sticks when that happens, because the student has really figured something out. I have another essay he wrote this week, after the one in question, and that piece of writing displays all of the same old problems I had noted previously in his writing.

Well, anyway, I don't mean to go off on a rant. I guess I just want people to understand that I do have good reasons to doubt the work is his original writing. And I also want people to understand that I am being cautious in how I handle it. That's one of the reasons why I asked the horary.

Thanks again to everyone.

Teacher wrote:Hello, again.

It's quite gratifying to see such an interest in this topic.

The house cusps for the chart are mixed. The AC-DC axis is fixed. The MC-IC axis is mutable. I use regio houses. So what does this indicate? A mixture of truth and stuff that can't be pinned down?.

You must look at the angle of the 3rd as well which is the writing/report/rumor, etc. to see if it is fixed. It is.

Even if you looked to the 7th house, the Sun, as the student as others here have argued, it too is disposited by Venus, ruler of the fixed 3rd as is Mercury as well. And Venus is Fixed. Moon is angular and it's last aspect leading up to your question was an aspect to fixed Venus, showing the work to be true. (imo).

You've got Uranus in 1st which destroys the question, Neptune on your ASC and Saturn in 7th. All this could lead to an error in judgment.

I haven't studied the chart in detail but these things are glaring at a glance. You should walk through Lilly's considerations on 3rd house matters re: reports, etc. if you have his work.

(Regio house also puts 3rd cusp in fixed position.)

RC

RC, there are some points in your post that I don?t understand.

You must look at the angle of the 3rd

Do you mean the cusp of the 3rd house?

? to see if it is fixed. It is.

I know I spoke about this in my earlier post, but actually I now have reservations about whether the technique for establishing ?if a rumour is true? can work in exactly the same way here. But assuming it can, then the main focus is whether all four angles are fixed; otherwise it?s the MC and IC that are considered most significant (CA p.194). The 3rd house cusp is not an angle and so it has much less relevance in this approach. Seeing a fixed sign on the 3rd cusp is, of course, meaningful, but it is not a 'rule' that overides everything else.

Now that I?ve had a look at the chart, it seems more significant that the 3rd-ruler (Venus) is cadent, peregrine, in its own sign of detriment and conjunct its own turned 7th house. Taking Venus to signify the paper, this overall weakness and essential debility describes the student's work as having poor internal integrity. Because the 3rd-ruler is on its own 7th cusp and has recently received the sextile of the Moon from the radical 7th, the chart seems to point to the involvement of another person, which makes me wonder whether the student received some help from another student.

Even if you looked to the 7th house, the Sun, as the student as others here have argued, it too is disposited by Venus, ruler of the fixed 3rd as is Mercury as well. And Venus is Fixed.

But Venus is in very poor state, as noted in my previous comment. In addition, taking the Sun as the significator of the student (and the real test here is whether it describes the student appropriately), the Sun is also peregrine, in its sign of fall, and positioned in the 8th. This would describe the student as lacking ability and strength of character. We also have that afflicted Mercury to consider.

You've got Uranus in 1st which destroys the question,

I?m not sure where that comes from. Even if we applied a rule like that (I certainly don?t) the ascendant is at 17.28 Aquarius, and Uranus is at 20 Pisces, so 32 degrees away from the angle. How can we regard a planet that far away from the angle as capable of destroying the question?

Deb wrote:RC, there are some points in your post that I don?t understand.

Hi Deb:

Some of this is from Ivy's works. Ivy said in one place that "Uranus in the first house cripples the person or case" and in another part of her work she states that it "destroys the question".

In teacher's case/question, it would appear to apply as she is "crippled" in the matter in the sense as she said, she can't accuse him without proof or she would be fired. She can't run the software to see if it's a genuine writing because it is written, not typed. True, it's closer to the next house but doesn't fall in the 2nd under the traditional rule since its less than 5'. Also, by mutual reception, it is near her ASC and Neptune stays in the 1st even under mutual reception.

Referring to fixity of the 3rd house and its importance, Ivy puts the 3rd down as one of the more important considerations, even if all angles are not fixed, and looks to the lord of the 3rd for fixity both of which we have here.
From Ivy Jacobson's Simplified Horary Astrology:

Ivy wrote:
It is not true [if] there is no FIXITY of the Sign on the 3rd, its ruler..., the angles or the ruler of [4th].

So she doesn't require a fixed cross. Here we have fixed ASC/DESC, 3rd and Lord of 3rd, more than enough I would think.

Also relevant I think:
APHORISMS, BY ZADKIEL. (from Zadkiel's edition of Lilly's Christian Astrology)

ZADKIEL wrote: 1st. In all cases of hearing rumours or reports, receiving letters or messages, &c., if you erect a figure for the exact minute of hearing or reading the news, &c., the lord of the 3d in good aspect with the cusp of the 7th, or a planet in the 7th, shews that the news is true, and that you are not deceived; if he be in evil aspect, either semi-square, ?, sesquiquadrate, or ?, the news is false.

So looking to the 7th house, we have confirmation as well; Here, the moon is in the 7th house just separating by minutes from Venus, the report (& student under my interpretation). The moon showing the action in this case, is a strong indicator of what type of report it was. It was fixed.

Regarding Venus being "cadent" in 9th: True, but it attains dignity by being in the house which rules in part the matter at hand. It is in the 9th of study and higher eduction/ university and so is in its own house in that sense.

Regarding its mutual reception w/Mars. Mars is dynamic energy. She said she had threatened he would be dropped if he didn't get the report in right away. You could argue mars was the fast completion of the work to get the report done on time. Or as you say, it could have been some helper. But receiving help is not the same as plagiarism. That is allowed in creating an essay is it not? You usually resort to resources to write a paper. Perhaps he worked with a tutor or some type of helper. Or again, it may just be the energy behind the work. I didn't study that.

And I still think she has a lot of malefics prominent here which affect her judgment in this case, Neptune near her ASC, Saturn in the 7th and Uranus in the first.

There is authority too, tho I can't cite it at present, that the retrograde mercury shows, the matter or concern regarding reports will come to nothing, that the cause for concern will dissipate or something to that affect when the question is about a report, mercury being its natural ruler.

RC

Hello, All:

I just wanted to give everyone an update on this situation. I still haven't been able to find specific evidence that the essay in question has been plagarized. However, there was an interesting development in class this week that reflects some of the comments people have made.

Last week, the class did an outlining exercise together, in which everyone contributed ideas to a sample outline of a particular reading assignment. This exercise is designed to give students practice in organizing their ideas, and it is also supposed to stimulate their thinking about the reading assignment. After doing the outline in class, the students were then supposed to go home, create their own outline of the same reading, and write their own paper based on their own, original outline.

The student whom I suspect of plagarism, however, did not create his own original outline. He used the one we did in class, and then wrote a paper copying the class outline almost word for word. This incident is in line with the remark that perhaps this student is getting help from another student to complete his work. For some reason, this student does not seem to comprehend what is expected of him in this class.

All of the other students were able to follow my instructions and write their own papers--so I don't think this is a case of me not being clear about the assignment. This fellow just is not listening, and does not seem to understand the importance of producing his own original work. Apparently, he sees nothing wrong with submitting things done by other people.

Well, thanks again to everyone.

If it were something I was that concerned about, I would go ahead and type up that paper myself and run the software.

He does seem like a very lazy student. Or maybe he's overloaded with other work. My first reaction when I looked at the chart was to defend him. Maybe its just the advocate in me.

Good luck with that.

RC

Hi RC.

You must look at the angle of the 3rd as well which is the writing/report/rumor, etc. to see if it is fixed. It is.

I disagree that the third cusp signifies the essay. Once the student hands in the assignment for marking, it becomes ninth house. Prior to this, it is the third. The manuscript for a book, for example, is the third, once it's published, it's the ninth.

It's the same principle as for merchadise; items for sale are the eighth house (second from seventh : the seller's wares), it is only once the item has been purchased that it becomes the second.

Mind you, having said this, you may note that earlier in this thread, I said that the essay should be seen in the ninth from the seventh, bringing us to the third. I take this back. I don't know what I was thinking here. Mind you, I was having a tipple at the time.

I still reckon the essay was dishonest.

Thanks for the feedback Teacher.